David, in the spray turn at near Vx airspeed (race track) we are using zoom reserve airspeed getting up and then continuously giving that altitude back in the incremental descending return to the field in a reversed heading and descent all the way. We are not trying to maintain either the Vx pitch attitude or the altitude it has gained us. As with back to back, race track is a trade of airspeed for altitude and that altitude (all of it) back for airspeed. The default trade, and not the altitude gained, is the key. We can't expect our students, even with winch tow experience, to make trading default. We can fight hard to make them at least think about not pulling back in turns, but they are not going to have the muscle memory to always trade and never expect to keep altitude. Yes, I know maintaining altitude is possible. When we work low, we just can't think that way...it is just too dangerous. If Vx to an altitude high enough to enable the impossible turn is default, we will have way too many stall and stall spin fatalities on airport property. I understand Josh using it as the proper tool for his housing impacted airport, but he is not making it default. Nor are you, when spraying. You are making trading airspeed for altitude and altitude for airspeed default. You are not making the gain of a certain altitude and the retaining a certain altitude default.

You are right Jim, but I am also relying on 750hp to helmet gain altitude to turn. If I lose an engine mid run the chances of making a 180 and near 0. Same for on a takeoff. With a Vx climb you only need to teach a quick pitch down response and 180, with the zoom climb there is more to teach a student. I’m not a big fan of the zoom climb takeoff, I also don’t like Vx climbs. It’s uncomfortably steep in my 206. But I would give up a lot of altitude climbed if I held it in ground effect until my cruise speed. I could be halfway down the runway going 140mph or I could’ve climbed to 1000 feet by the same runway point at 100 mph. Being at 1000 feet gives me much more chance of doing a 180 then being on the deck at 140…

Old (ish) Aggie and glider pilot here, and while I love the title of the thread, I think perhaps most of are drifting into the 'my way is the right way' territory.

Jim is contesting the 'impossible turn. It's not uncharted territory, there are scores of YouTubes, posts, and articles on the same. Most walk away with the same conclusion. It isn't impossible, it may be your best choice, it may be your worst failure. Way too many variables to say do this, without defining every other aspect of that particular engine failure. Was it a space shuttle, a crop duster, or a carbon cub? Did it quit on the roll, at 75' AGL or at 250' AGL? Wind, obstacles, other lives?

This thread leaves too many open ends, and all too soon divides minds instead of thought building. If she goes quite on you, just don't go quite on her, Do what you trained for, and don't quit till you're done moving. Only know one way out? shame on you for picking only 'the right way' to train. I gave up the notion of instructing, because early on it became obvious to me, that just as there are instructors that believe their way is 'the right way', there are students who have already made up their minds on what's right. Shame on the primary instructor that was afraid to step outside of the box and help a budding pilot realize that this 3d form of motivation simply can not be boxed in to one set of PTS, or whatever the acronym of the day is.

I am of the opinion that comparing an emergency turn in a glider to an honest CAR8 ag loaded aircraft, to the latest Carbon Cub offering is like comparing apples to anvils and chevys. These things don't have anything in common, save the physics argument until you can wring each out to its fullest extent. I am not there yet, and hope to time out still trying to reach that pinnacle.

I have made the impossible turn after a bad hand (twice), I have also ended up in the weeds on the over run (in a turbine). I have been blessed enough to run equipment that on departure has so much excess thrust, you have to realize that the 'zoom' portion of zoom climb is probably the first 100', and I've been blessed to run equipment that didn't know what zoom smelled like. Those are the ones that really have a lot to offer in learning about energy management.

I don't like the term 'zoom climb' because it paints a picture in a students mind that equates hauling ass. I prefer terms like energy management, because there is far less room for conjecture. It's pretty specific, trade one area of energy for another. It is also IMHO does not paint a 2 dimensional picture. Manage your energy, that also means don't let your ass slide sideways unless you told it to do so, and make it slide like a side passing horse if that's what your situation calls for. I won't delve in to the rights and wrongs of coordination, save to say that arguing that some how an uncoordinated turn is going to be the spinning death of you if you stall, is like arguing which came first the chicken or the egg.

The problem with zoom and hauling ass is that it paints a picture of what to do with the throttle and forgets its the wing's energy we're trading. Sometimes cruise speed is wasted energy, sometimes even cruise speed doesn't allow for much change in pitch.

Great topic to learn from.


Take care, Rob

Thanks for being such a good referee, Rob. "The force" of big engines was never strong in this one. The largest Ag plane I flew was an AT-302. The speed and climb ability of it and airliners scares the pee out of me. I borrowed zoom from Wolfgang with his son's permission, but energy management and the law of the roller coaster (also him) are probably better terms. Thanks again. I would be lost out here without you.

Great post as usual Rob.

Hi Contact,

I apologize for muddling again and if I'm being totally transparent, another reason I don't care for the term zoom much is because it is a catch phrase of yesteryear, bullies and one track minds find these easy prey for satire, sarcasm, and ridicule. Throw something that came from the soul of physics, like energy, coupled with a bully term like management and they stop and think a minute

Hi David, thank you. I enjoy reading your posts and understand where you're coming from. I also agree with all of it, as I do with Jim's (where they respectively fit my mission of the moment).

I'd like to make an observation, please do not take this as preachy or condescending, it's just an observation / reflection on myself and a few compadres I've enjoyed flying with, that may fit your flying world as well.

You turn and fly heavy more than the vast majority of the flying world, and you do it well I have no doubt.
However, in a thousand hours, you'll do it different, because today priority #1 is staying alive, and that still takes thought. In 1000hrs, you'll shift towards turning with efficiency, because while you enjoy what you're doing, you're doing it to make a buck as well, and by then turning safely will be like walking safely. In 5-10,000 hrs. you'll be doing it again through a different set of eyes. You will have years of experience and turning safely will not require much of your capacity, turning efficiently, even less, and by that point you'll lean towards turning smooth and effortlessly, because you'll be interested in safely making money in comfort, a thought that's probably the furthest thing from your mind right now..... or I may just be a slower learner than you

I guess my point there was I like your posts, and hope in your mind you are reserving the right to change your opinion as the seasons of life dictate.

CHA, that's the good thought provoking stuff and all of it pretty much matches up with my world as well.

Take care, Rob

Hey Rob, thanks for the advice. I always am striving to learn to improve, be it in the air tractor or my 2606. I know I have room for improvement. Early this season will probably be some regression towards the extreme safety turns due to the fact that we just got the TSB report on our downed plane. It’s what we expected, but it’ll be in the back of our minds as we start the season. One f these days I’ll get down south and visit with you in person!