When I started on my private certificate about 15 years ago, I couldn't do a X-Wind landing to save my life. The plane would fishtail back and forth all over the place. So, I bought a copy of MS Flight Simulator and a yoke and pedals. I set it up for a healthy X-wind. And, I'll be damned if the simulator didn't fishtail around EXACTLY like the real plane! It really boosted my confidence in the simulator.

With all of the pressure off, I did several simulated landings and suddenly the light came on. It was exactly as MTV described. It's like looking down a gun barrel. Steer towards the touchdown point with the yoke (rear sight). Keep the opposite end of the runway in line with the touchdown point using the pedals (front sight). After that it was a perfect simulated landing every time.

The next time I went up with my instructor, we had the benefit of a nice gusting x-wind. He said it was way too much for me, but I could give it a try but to be ready to give him control when he told me it was his plane. I brought it straight down the center and put it down perfectly and he yelled excitedly to go around and see if I could do it again. I did it again, and then he seemed irritated and wanted to know who else I was going to for instruction. I laughed and said "MS Flight Simulator!" He couldn't believe it until I explained how I had bought both a yoke and pedals and then set it up for a x-wind.

I already had the computer, and I spent slightly less than $200 for the software, yoke, and pedals. It was about 2 1/2 hours worth of airplane with instructor time back then, but I learned far more from all of the time I spent on it than I ever could have learned in 2 1/2 hours in the plane. I can't recommend it highly enough as a complement to a good instructor. However, some of my friends just bought the software, and used a joystick to control it, and while they learned quite a bit about flying, it didn't help them any with their landings.

by Grassstrippilot » Tue May 19, 2009 6:47 pm

Hey everyone,

I need some third party insight and, with the vast array of diverse experience on here, I thought I would throw this out to you all.

I have a student who is about to throw in the towel because he just can't figure out x-wind landings. I've about come to the end of my bag of tricks that I have used to teach them. We've done everything from the having him follow me on the controls, to setting him up on a long final with the slip established, to following fencelines out in the practice area with a stiff x-wind. He seems to follow fencelines with no problem, but for the life of him, he can't keep the nose pointed down the runway. I think it is


**********

Hey Grasstrippilot,

Maybe I am missing something here....I do that some times. But what are you doing trying to get him to "keep the nose pointed down the runway"?? If you mean that literally then he is being taught a less effective techique. Teach him to crab into the wind. Keep the runway coming down between his legs. The nose might be pointed 10 or, 20 degrees or more into the wind. I may seem that one is flying sidways. I've seen crosswinds so severe that I was looking out the copilot's side window as we tracked straight down the runway centerline. In reality the aircraft will be headed straight down the runway. You don't care which way it is pointed! Hold the crab into the flare...kick the rudder around so that the nose is straight while lowering the upwing wing to cancel the drift, just prior to touchdown. Touch down on the upwind wheel if the wind is strong. Presto...you are on the ground. Hold the ailerion into the wind as you roll out...steering with the rudder.

Discalaimer. I was taught the slip method as a student 43 years ago. Didn't have any trouble with it . But when I learned the crap method....life got lots simpler. My apologies if if misunderstood the discription of your technique.

Bob

z3skybolt wrote:Hey Grasstrippilot,

Maybe I am missing something here....I do that some times. But what are you doing trying to get him to "keep the nose pointed down the runway"?? If you mean that literaly then he is being taught a lousy techique. Teach him to crab into the wind. Keep the runway coming down between his legs. The nose might be pointed 10 or, 20 degrees or more into the wind. I may seem that one is flying sidways. I've seen crosswinds so severe that I was looking out the copilot's side window as we tracked straight down the runway centerline. In reality the aircraft will be headed straight down the runway. You don't care which way it is pointed! Hold the crab into the flare...kick the rudder around so that the nose is straight while lowering the upwing wing to cancel the drift, just prior to touchdown. Touch down on the upwind wheel if the wind is strong. Presto...you are on the ground. Hold the ailerion into the wind as you roll out...steering with the rudder.

Discalaimer. I was taught the slip method as a student 43 years ago. Didn't have any trouble with it . But when I learned the crap method....life got lots simpler. My apologies if if misunderstood the discription of your technique.

Bob

I always crab my way in on final, to a point, and then always go to a slip. That is the only way I have figured out how to know what is going on with the crosswind and if I can even land. If I kicked out of a crab right at touch down I don't think I would know if I could keep the little wheel behind me once I touch down.

I'm out of the crab and into a correction slip by the time I come over the fence. I don't feel comfortable with that last-minute kickout.

Eric

Enjoy guys,

Whatever works for each under various circumstances.

Bob

wannabe wrote:GSP Do you happen to also instruct young kids in gliders?
Your plane looks familiar, and if so, you may have figured out a problem with me and my 170 some time back.

Chris C

Hey,

Sorry for the late reply. I've been swamped ever since I took the first part of the month off. No, I haven't done any glider flying. The plane is an old CAP plane, so that might be why it looks familiar.

As for an update, I took my student out and did a ton of landings, first letting him only play with the rudder, then a ton with the ailerons. I think it was very productive. We'll do it again this week and hopefully have a little more x-wind for him to work against. I think when we get this wrinkle ironed out, he'll be ready to keep going. The good news is that he does't want to throw the towel in and is looking forward to flying at night. We also used the dry erase marker on the windshield too. We'll be incorporating some of the other ideas on here this week as well.

Thanks again for all of your input.

GSP

z3skybolt wrote:
Hey Grasstrippilot,

Maybe I am missing something here....I do that some times. But what are you doing trying to get him to "keep the nose pointed down the runway"?? If you mean that literally then he is being taught a less effective techique. Teach him to crab into the wind. Keep the runway coming down between his legs. The nose might be pointed 10 or, 20 degrees or more into the wind. I may seem that one is flying sidways. I've seen crosswinds so severe that I was looking out the copilot's side window as we tracked straight down the runway centerline. In reality the aircraft will be headed straight down the runway. You don't care which way it is pointed! Hold the crab into the flare...kick the rudder around so that the nose is straight while lowering the upwing wing to cancel the drift, just prior to touchdown. Touch down on the upwind wheel if the wind is strong. Presto...you are on the ground. Hold the ailerion into the wind as you roll out...steering with the rudder.

Discalaimer. I was taught the slip method as a student 43 years ago. Didn't have any trouble with it . But when I learned the crap method....life got lots simpler. My apologies if if misunderstood the discription of your technique.

Bob

From The Airplane Flying Handbook:

"There are two usual methods of accomplishing a crosswind
approach and landing—the crab method and the
wing-low (sideslip) method. Although the crab method
may be easier for the pilot to maintain during final
approach, it requires a high degree of judgment and
timing in removing the crab immediately prior to
touchdown. The wing-low method is recommended in
most cases, although a combination of both methods
may be used."

While how you describe is how I fly my day-job plane as well, it's been my experience that this technique is more than a new student can handle. While he might get lucky on one landing, the next is way off the mark because the student doesn't understand, or have the feel for, how much control input is required to 1) align the longitudinal axis with the runway and 2) to stop the drift. Kicking it out at the last minute gives him very little time to figure it out as well.

mtv wrote:I concur with all the above comments, and will add this:

I find that MY landings tend to get squirrelly when I let my gaze focus too long on the touchdown point. Your student needs to find some point waaaaaayyyyy off in the distance, that will get him aligned with the runway. Now, it's a gunsight kinda thing, with the rear sight being the runway centerline, and the front sight being the tree, barn, etc off in the distance. At the very least, tell him to focus on the FAR end of the runway, NOT the near end.

Frequently, I'll have a student who should know better start to screw up the alignment on approach. Almost invariably, when I tell em to look waaaaaayyyyy down the runway for their reference, and use their peripheral vision for the flare and near reference, their landings improve significantly.

Try it. As an instructor, it's near impossible to tell where your student is focusing their eyes. I'll bet he's totally focused on the touchdown point.

MTV

Yeah, I had picked up on this as well. It was evident when we flew the other day because his landing became very flat, i.e. he wasn't flaring because he would loose sight of the spot in front of him that he had been fixated on. I like the gunsight analogy. We'll talk about it again this week.

Thanks,
GSP

Bear_Builder wrote:My instructor had me do 1 wheel landings in calm weather to practice for crosswinds. Must have worked because I got back from my solo cross country to a 17kt 90 degree cross wind and managed to land the Citabria safely.

Also, is he short? He may be having trouble seeing down the runway as he flares. My instructor had one student that just couldn't seem to get 3 point landings down. Turns out he was just a bit short and keep trying to peek over the nose at landing.

Some people learn best by reading and thinking it through on the ground. Have him read this article:
http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleC ... sFoto.html

Good luck to him!
Phil

My instructor had me do this as well and it is on the agenda.

Thanks,
GSP