You might want to restate that you enjoyed the class and got something
out of it besides unsubstantiated proposed changes to POH and bitches
about throttle design (from other correspondence, I think you did).

I personally don't find that middle button hard to hit with my palm as
throttle and prop go forward, and don't understand the McCall instructors
aversion: no time, palm forward; time, what's the issue?

To my simple brain, vernier control doesn't do much for me other than allow
me to dial in 2000 rpm exactly for mag check, prop cycle; other times,
it's push the button and adjust until I like what the JPI shows.

-Dick

rjb wrote:You might want to restate that you enjoyed the class and got something
out of it besides unsubstantiated proposed changes to POH and bitches
about throttle design (from other correspondence, I think you did).

I personally don't find that middle button hard to hit with my palm as
throttle and prop go forward, and don't understand the McCall instructors
aversion: no time, palm forward; time, what's the issue?

To my simple brain, vernier control doesn't do much for me other than allow
me to dial in 2000 rpm exactly for mag check, prop cycle; other times,
it's push the button and adjust until I like what the JPI shows.

-Dick

Ok! I enjoyed the class restated! I made that quite clear on the very first post of this thread. You have to read the entire thread! You can't come in at the end and assume the negative. Dick, Are you mad at me? because I am not mad at you!
However for the price of admission that I paid I like to bounce off some of what I was told & questioned to seasoned pilot veteran's so I can learn and get a different view point. I believe that is my prerogative?
I find the vernier throttle quite useful in landing on short final especially if
you are carry power into the landing. As you know the Maule can be temper mental on short ,short final and sometimes a gradual screw back of power results in a smooth landing as opposed to a sink, & bounce scenario from chopping power. IMHO that can turn a controlled landing into a maybe controlled landing. I have cut the power and successfully landed the aircraft but I also have had some pretty hairy landings form chopping power. But as the man said Whatever winds your watch.
Floyd, Once again you are wise this horse is dead! And I am OUT!

Ok,

I just can't resist any longer...

Mark you are classic!!! LOL

Sojorrn wrote:SLIM = Switches, Lean, Ignition, Master. Why because you can do damage to the master electronics's by turning off while the ignition is still on.
Of course some of this is my problem due to it not sinking in the first time but I am glad it was brought to my attention.

Here is another one for you...the one I was taught with and still use. REMMM. Radios, Electrics, Mixture, Mags, Master

Sojorrn wrote:They did mention that run up on a back country strip was a no no because of rocks etc.

Run ups can be done when needed, just do them while rolling forward at a decent clip. This will keep from sucking rocks, etc. up into the prop and only takes a minute at most.

N6EA wrote:Ok,

I just can't resist any longer...

I about fell out of my chair!!

Sojorrn wrote:I don't mean to be taking pot shots at the fellow and I'm sure he's got lots of knowledge that I don't about flying. However I don't think they've made a very good argument for their point that cycling your prop hurts the motor. They have not presented any quantifiable data to that point, only conjecture that flies in the face documented proper procedure. Had I been sitting through their class I would have definitely discarded the idea that cycling my prop would damage the internals of my motor or prop hub.

Excellent point regarding the data and testing to prove the position. As for the pot shot remark. I always get suspicious when someone gets defensive and attacks personally instead of sticking to the subject![/quote]

Bingo! Good discussion. I have to call BS on this as well. For me, the proof is in the pudding, i.e. the lack of a clear, documented, well explained "why".

On my 182, I use 1300-1500 during a rolling runup and get adequate rpm drop.

58Skylane wrote:

N6EA wrote:Ok,

I just can't resist any longer...

I about fell out of my chair!!

There is so much truth to this. I hear this more often than I would like. Refer to the addict thread!

Sojorrn,

Back to the vernier throttle deal: I don't like them, I think Maule is the only manufacturer who has ever installed them, and why I don't know.

As I noted, I don't particularly like them, but the bottom line is--who cares? Learn to fly the plane.

The only trap I can see with the vernier throttle is you're fiddling with twisting when you oughta be pushing. Learn to operate the dang thing, and it should be a non issue, in my book.

Even if I owned one, I wouldn't change it out for a different type.

MTV

MTV,
I have made the adjustment to the vernier throttle. I don't even think about it unless an instructor complains because they are not use to it. I posed this question some time ago and like everything else there are those who love and those who don't. But I agree I don't see a reason to get rid of it. Besides I just put in a right seat push out window for the instructors who have moaned and groaned. I just couldn't help sharing the tape the button scenario. It occurred to me that there wasn't a lot of thought on their part. What my wife said was;" I thought these guys had a lot on Maule time?"and she is not a pilot!
I don't want to sound like I am berating the organization. 95% of the experience was informative and like I said earlier I know I am a better pilot for taking the course and recommend it to those who like me want to improve their ability. I really enjoy having the veterans among us feedback their thoughts pro and con. I learn through this give and take. I know for a fact if I am way off base I will be told in short order. My intentions were not to complain but to share and learn. As I told Zane I have spent many hours of enjoyment on the BCP site. and I appreciate his time , effort and resources for maintaining the site.

I didn't like the vernier throttle at first, now I would like it in the Cessna's that I have. You don't even realize it's there in the pattern because you just get used to pushing in the button with your palm as has been suggested. I'm the guy who likes to reduce power slowly as I get nearer my destination and it's great for that. I hadn't thought about the fact that it never creeps when you release it.

I also like to lose power gradually on short final and the screwing mechanism is great for that purpose. I find that a Maule M7- 235C has a tendency to unexpectedly sink & bounce sometimes with power chopped. The vernier throttle allows a gradual decrease.
I was told that Mr. B. Maule has said that the Maule needs to carry a little power into the landing maybe that is why he chose to put in the Vernier?

Of course, I have the vernier throttle on my Maule. I have almost never twisted a power setting with it. I use two fingers in front of the knob and a thumb on the button. At first I thought this was totally weird, but now I would probably fly a Ce**na the exact same way and never notice it. As MTV said, just get used to it. At least I know it's never gonna change power setting unless I do it.

What I DID notice about the vernier that I didn't like was that there was a lot of hysteresis when you decide to change the direction of screwing. If you go from reducing power to add just that 25 RPM to counter the little sink that always seems to lurk just off the end of the runway, you don't get the instant adjustment you are looking for: it takes a couple of turns before it takes effect and by then, you are through the sink and want to go the other direction again. I ride the button most of the way on short final.

But I don't use duct tape. Not on the throttle anyway.

Well, I never did adapt the the vernier throttle so I replaced it with a friction lock Cessna type throttle control. My hand rarely leaves the throttle on takeoffs or landings, so the throttle settings stay put.

YB, if youv'e got hysteresis of the cable, you aren't an engineer are you? youv'e got something binding. I mean your prop doesn't exhibit the same symptoms does it?

A64:
You're right. Maybe "slop" is a more precise word in this case. Can't say I ever demanded the instant change of direction from the prop that I expect from the throttle tho. I find I can do a temprorary nudge of the throttle easier with a push/pull than a twist/untwist.
YB

Sojorrn,
Everything else in life is a trade off, so I don't see why operating procedures would be any different. There is going to be a pro and a con to every procedure you adopt.

Some people only do a run-up for the first flight of the day. OK, but why would shutting down for two hours be any different than shutting down for twelve hours? I do a run-up after every shut-down when on pavement or grass, and I don't do any run-up when on loose gravel if I cant do it while moving forward at a good clip. That's just me. I've never done a run-up and discovered something that would cancel the flight, just like I've never found enough water in my gas sumps to justify draining them.

Mr. Scout sometimes taxi's with a load on the engine to keep the plugs clean. I'd never heard of that. I lean my engine aggressively immediately after start up and don't enrichen it until I'm on the center line. I also lean aggressively immediately after landing, for the same reason. We're both going after the same goal, though with different procedures. There are no doubt advantages and risks to both.

I've sought out instruction from a fair number of people, and each instructor had a different opinion on how things should be done. Ditto for mechanics. For me, the value in instruction isn't that someone is going to teach me the "right" way to do something, any more than someone is going to tell me which is the "right" plane to fly. Rather, by learning why other people do things the way they do, I start to think about things I wouldn't normally think about. At the end of the day it's up to me to decide what procedures I'm going to adopt and why.

Anyone can fly a plane, just like anyone can drive a car. The amount of skill, finesse, and professionalism is a different matter. How much thought and concern you put into your flight operations is, at least in my opinion, a lot more important than running through a check list of procedures just because they're on the list. The truly great thing about flying is that it makes each pilot uniquely accountable for their decisions. It's your arse gravity is pulling on, so do what makes sense to you.

Regardless of whether you adopt their procedures, it sounds to me like the McCall flight school did a good job of getting you to think about how you fly. Money well spent, I'd say.

Hooooo Boy, here we go again!!!!

Hammer, leaning on the ground with the engine at idle does absolutely NOTHING to prevent plug fouling.

In short, your mixture control does not govern the idle jet in your carburetor until you get to idle cutoff, at which point the engine dies.

So, if you lean at less than about 1500 to 1700 rpm, you are accomplishing precisely nothing. The engine is (or should be) running on the idle jet.

The notion of leaning the mixture on the ground is one of those very widespread wives tales that is really difficult to kill.

Give Lycoming a call, and ask them....

If you want to prevent plug fouling, Lycoming has a shut down procedure that works wonders. Run the engine prior to shutdown at 1500 rpm for 20 seconds, then reduce to 1200 and immediately idle cutoff. That procedure (and I've simplified it a bit) can be found in Lycomings "Key Reprints" which can be found on the web, here: http://www.lycoming.com/support/tips-ad ... /index.jsp

This little resource has all sorts of great information on running your Lycoming engine. And, its free.

MTV

Uh Mike, If the mixture knob was ineffective at idle, then you couldn't use it to turn the engine off.
Maybe you are thinking of the idle mixture adjustment on the carb? That's only effective at idle and just barely above, then you transition to the main jet.
Then of course there are injected engines where I'm sure the mixture works throughout the RPM range.
You are correct on the Lycoming shut down procedure though.