I just went to a safety seminar that suggested you not turn back to the runway on engine failure unless you have already gotten up to pattern altitude. I have also read articles where guys have done all sorts of fancy calculations and came up with about 600 feet for a typical light aircraft. It seems to me that this whole thing depends on the plane.

Since I've got an experimental aircraft, I figured I'd go out and experiment.

My plane stalls clean at about 35 mph. Initial climb at sea level is about 1200 ft/min. Vx is about 42 mph. I found it was easy to turn back and land on the centerline of the runway with 500 AGL attained. In the case of the Corvallis airport, the runway is 5000 ft. so I can get to 500 before I'm even to the end of the runway. At 300 AGL, I would not make it all the way back and get all straightened out, but landing cockeyed on the pavement, and running off into the grass at a relatively slow speed would still seem better to me than landing straight ahead into houses or telephone wires or parking lots full of cars.

I'm glad I did a little experiment. I think I have a better idea what my plane can do, and this will open up options if my engine dies for real.

tom

savannah-tom wrote:Since I've got an experimental aircraft, I figured I'd go out and experiment.

... blah blah blah...

I'm glad I did a little experiment. I think I have a better idea what my plane can do, and this will open up options if my engine dies for real.

tom

Great experiment, Tom. Nice plane you've got there.

Using the powers of armchair reasoning, I'll throw out a few thoughts.

Were the winds calm? Certainly a tailwind could be problematic, not that anyone typically takes off with the wind at our backs.

How hot was it? Seems to me that sink rate would be higher on a hot day than a cold one.

The Fear Factor. Personal performance does tend to go down for us mortals when the S#!T hits the fan. Your mileage may vary.

Craig

Interesting post Tom, thanks for starting this.

I'd bet that the unfortunate souls that chose to turn back to the runway following a takeoff engine failure didn't die because they ran out of altitude, but rather because they were making turns on the edge of minimum controllable airspeed.

Almost all of the accidents that adhere to this script are stall/spin accidents. I think the rule of thumb that says "just land ahead" exists to keep pilots from making steep slow turns while fixated on the runway.

The fact that a tailwind will probably exist just makes the impact ground speed faster.

Having thought a lot about this, but not having really put any time into experimenting with it, I'd speculate that the "land straight ahead" proposition is much more promising simply because you're assured of flying it to the ground rather than falling out of the sky in a slow turn.

Of course at Corvallis, you're golden no matter what, like a lot of places in the Willamette Valley. It's gonna be a whole lot tougher at airports with a lot of trees off the end of the runway....which is why I wish I was based at CVO.

I think the more parameters we learn about our airplanes the better.

I have also done the turn back to runway experiment with several different aircraft.

I see the problem as this, if someone knows they can make the runway from, lets say 500'

On a real engine failure your first thought needs to be nose down.

Time looking at the altimeter and making a decision in my opinion wastes valuable time.

Once your in the mental landing mode if you can make the runway then great. Until then I will take whatever is in front or beside me.

How about this for a thought. 3 of the 4 aircraft that I regularly fly can either simply land straight ahead on the remaining runway or by the time there isn't sufficient runway left, they have achieved enough altitude to make the turn.
This is true only on the big GA airports of course and if I taxi all of the way to the departure end and don't use an intersection, you know the old adage about the three most useless things in aviation?

A64

That means you are operating at a strip that is way to big. Time to move

I saw a computer flight simulator work up on this at one of the WINGS seminars...they used a virtual Cessna 172 and played out various options. About the one thing I remember is that it's a piece of cake to make a 180 back to the airport if you have 500 feet to work with. Of course the hitch is that when the engine dies it requires an almost instantaneous turn with 70 degrees of bank.

So, seventy-degree banked turn at 500 agl with a dead engine...

Everyone's different, but I'd rather crap my pants after I die, not moments before while I can still be embarrassed by it.

The guys without engines know - and practice - a rope break. Below 50' they go straight ahead. 50-200' they can turn 90 degrees. 200' is all it takes to turn a sailplane around and land back where it came from. So before takeoff, their checklist includes an 'E' for emergency procedures, which involves reviewing which way they'd turn and what altitudes they want before doing anything. Until they're at normal pattern altitude, they're watching altitude. At 200' they verbally say "200 feet" to reinforce that they can now do a 180 safely and, if the rope breaks, there will be no hesitation.

And the standard I was taught is a 60-degree bank.

Now if you take off with a tailwind, that will help if you need to do a 180 due to your inertia relative to the earth.

mr scout wrote:On a real engine failure your first thought needs to be nose down.

Time looking at the altimeter and making a decision in my opinion wastes valuable time.

If you are trimmed properly you don't need to force the nose down. Try it, I did. Simulate a takeoff and then pull the power and do not touch the yoke, see what happens. The airplane will nose down all by itself in an attempt to maintain the trimmed airspeed. In the 182 I trimmed for 80 mph. In the Bonanaza I'm looking for 100 MPH. The airplane will always seek its trimmed airspeed, a power loss on takeoff is no different.

Bonanza Man wrote:

mr scout wrote:On a real engine failure your first thought needs to be nose down.

Time looking at the altimeter and making a decision in my opinion wastes valuable time.

If you are trimmed properly you don't need to force the nose down. Try it, I did. Simulate a takeoff and then pull the power and do not touch the yoke, see what happens. The airplane will nose down all by itself in an attempt to maintain the trimmed airspeed. In the 182 I trimmed for 80 mph. In the Bonanaza I'm looking for 100 MPH. The airplane will always seek its trimmed airspeed, a power loss on takeoff is no different.

I didn't say anything about forcing the nose down, only what your first thought should be, I gives those pilots that panic a positive reaction to work from. Instead of a negative to work out of.

While I was working on my plane last weekend I watched a guy in a 182 do about 5 of these all in a row. I'd guess he climbed about 600 ft before cutting power.

1SeventyZ wrote: making turns on the edge of minimum controllable airspeed.

Anyone ever practice this? My plane stalls at 52mph indicated...I've tried making turns at 55 and found that it can be done but when I screw up and don't keep the ball centered...the plane will tuck a wing and send me spinning towards the ground. So 65 is about as slow as I'm comfortable with when maneuvering near the ground.

Jon

Not to be a naysayer, because I'll be the first to tell anybody the importance of playing "what if?" and always have a "WTFO" spot to go if things turn sour... But.

Pulling the throttle back at 500 feet and playing engine out, ain't the real deal in reaction time and "deer in the headlights look" time. That 500 feet turns to 400 feet real fast while you're sitting there going, "oh shit," and who says the crow gods are gonna even give you 500 feet that day.

Practice away because it's good to be in that mindset every take-off, but don't get it spring loaded in your head that you're going to have the room for anything, except aiming for and hitting the least expensive thing you see directly under the nose of the airplane.

Gump

BM,
Your right as long as your not hanging on the prop at vx, then you'd better drop the nose in a hurry, any good instrument pilot learns that altitude is throttle and speed is yoke
Everybody else,
60 degree angle of bank is a 2G turn, right? What happens to stall speed at 2G's? Y'all be careful playing with this now you hear.
Scout,
I did say it's only true at the bigger airports. Move?, I'd be crazy, I get free hanger space there and I get to keep my airplanes where I work, so I don't have to drive anywhere to fly after work.
Oh and you wanna have fun? Try an auto with a 180 turn in a helicopter

You guys have made some good observations. When the fan quits for real, there is definitely a different feel to the situation. I've read a lot of accident reports where the pilot tried to stretch his glide on engine failure and stalled it close to the ground with fatal results.

To support a 60 degree, a two G turn requires an airspeed of a little over 1.4 Vstall. This means you need to get the nose down and airspeed up quickly. I think a 45 degree turn, with it's 1.2 Vstall requirement is a little safer.

Any port in a storm. If straight ahead looked good to me, I sure would land there.

tom

2G's...You're assuming that you are trying to maintain level flight. When you unload the yoke at 60 degrees you're not pulling 2G's.

As mentioned numerous times, there is the WTF factor. I've tried this with the M*%# and feel comfortable with 600' even considering the WTF factor. Actually the plane will make a 180 in 300' but a 180 doesn't line you back up with the runway.

Knowing what's off the end and to the sides is a major consideration. Landing at an airport, take a good look around while in the pattern and make a note of what's available when you depart.

At a flight school I attended an instructor and student were practicing T&G's. Using the checklist (one titled "In Range" on this particular aircraft) which called for switching to the fullest main prior to landing, they did just that. That meant that on every downwind they were switching fuel tanks. One has to use what's between the ears and understand that this checklist item was not intended to be accomplished in this manner. Anyway, you get the picture. They somehow selected OFF. This gave them enough fuel to complete the landing and takeoff. Engine quit. Straight ahead was runway clearway & small saplings. They attempted a turn (about a 120 degree turn) to another runway, stalled and spun. One lived, one died. Knowing that the plane can do it and knowing that you can make the plane do it because you practice it is one thing. But when it happens, you only get one chance to make the right choice and execute properly.

Remember, uou're not making a 180 degree turn- you're actually making about a 270. 180 to go back, then 45 more to get back on the runway centerline and 45 back to get aligned with it again.

Mr. Ed wrote:2G's...You're assuming that you are trying to maintain level flight. When you unload the yoke at 60 degrees you're not pulling 2G's.

Unless I'm wrong it's not maintaining altitude, but maintaining airspeed that will require the 2G's. I've been wrong before, but I think I'm right here.
You guy's will laugh, but way back in flight school I was taught if your going to crash, do whatever you can to ensure it is inside of the fence. I'm sure that came from Vietnam, but with these "security" fences the airports have now days if your inside the fire / rescue vehicle can drive straight to you. Of course I'm talking about that big GA airport again

a64pilot wrote:

Mr. Ed wrote:2G's...You're assuming that you are trying to maintain level flight. When you unload the yoke at 60 degrees you're not pulling 2G's.

Unless I'm wrong it's not maintaining altitude, but maintaining airspeed that will require the 2G's. I've been wrong before, but I think I'm right here.

You are right. It applies to "unaccelerated" flight. You can be going up, down, or level, but you can't be increasing or decreasing your speed. This is basic physics.

tom

How timely! This very senerio just happened to me a couple of weeks ago in the PA11. After doing a weight and balance check with a friend, we filled the tanks back up with fuel. I should have known better (and I do), but I only put maybe a small amount in the main tank and the rest in the aux. Figured since I saw fuel in the gauge I would be ok. I live not 8 miles from the airport. Startup was fine, did my runup, full power, checked mags, carb heat, everything was fine. Takeoff was fine and about 500' when I began to level, the engine sputtered. In reaction I switched tanks, but still a little sputter. Luckily I was only a short distance off the end of the runway, so I immediately made a 180 to land back onto the runway. This was the first time I ever had something like that happen, and to be honest my knees were a little shakey. I taxied back the the hanger, talked it over with the friend, an ol a&p, and we figured that when I leveled out, the fuel being not high enough in the tank must have got a little air in it. I kick myself for being dumb like that, but I swore to myself from now on to never let that main tank get below a 1/4 of a tank. And I am thankful my instructor instilled in me the importance of keeping close the runway in case something happens!

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:

Savannah-Tom wrote:

a64pilot wrote:

Mr. Ed wrote:2G's...You're assuming that you are trying to maintain level flight. When you unload the yoke at 60 degrees you're not pulling 2G's.

Unless I'm wrong it's not maintaining altitude, but maintaining airspeed that will require the 2G's. I've been wrong before, but I think I'm right here.

You are right. It applies to "unaccelerated" flight. You can be going up, down, or level, but you can't be increasing or decreasing your speed. This is basic physics.

tom

??????????????
Ok, I gotta mull that one over for a bit, I have a sense you are right but I'm not seeing it from the right angle.

If I kick over to a 60 degree bank and maintain my airspeed I must be pulling 2 Gs

I think so. I know it's true for level, unaccelerated flight, I think it's true for just unaccelerated flight as well. Of course the same theory says a 90 degree bank is infinate G's and therefore impossible, but we have all done it? The only real point was don't get slow trying not to lose altitude and then crank in a lot of bank to turn quickly, just be careful.