I haven't dealt with them before. I just noticed an IFR training route wrapping around the Sierras where I was going to cross. They're pretty invasive to little planes. Looks like they're getting us corralled. IR 206-280 West of Tonapah (TPH)is an interesting scan if you haven't seen one.

They are just advisory, right?

Nosedragger wrote:I haven't dealt with them before. I just noticed an IFR training route wrapping around the Sierras where I was going to cross. They're pretty invasive to little planes. Looks like they're getting us corralled. IR 206-280 West of Tonapah (TPH)is an interesting scan if you haven't seen one.

Are you talking about MTRs, as in military training routes--the faint gray lines on charts? That's what an IR is. They are not used by unmanned aircraft. They are used for other military aircraft for training, and are only advisory to non participating aircraft (us). Most of them are used very infrequently by military aircraft.

MTV

No, this appears to be out of the blue a new airspace designation.it is on the legend. It specifically indicated an unmanned operations area.

Here's the current chart legend on the Las Vegas chart.......taken directly from the chart office site:



Note that IRs are described, but those have always been on charts. I see nothing new in the way of legend on that chart. I see IR 206 and 280 just west of Tonapah, but those are just standard Instrument MTRs....nothing exotic there.

Is this UAS legend you're talking about specific to a different chart? If so, WHICH CHART?

There's nothing on the Las Vegas chart I could see that pertains to UAS. Lots of military airspace, and lots of Range Control (CTC) references, but I see nothing new or different on that chart.

What am I missing? How about giving us a specific clue to what you are looking at......the chart, the portion of the chart, etc.

MTV

I think this is what is referenced but not absolutely certain.

IRs & VRs are effectively the same thing to civilian traffic. As mentioned they're for manned low level flight, not unmanned. If your route crosses one and you want the best info on activity check with flight service - military users check on & off the route with them

Yep, that's the one. Brand new symbology for drone operations on the sectional. Instead of a single route, it is designated as an entire corridor.

No new regs as far as I can see, so that is why it appears to me to be purely advisory.

lesuther wrote:Yep, that's the one. Brand new symbology for drone operations on the sectional. Instead of a single route, it is designated as an entire corridor.

No new regs as far as I can see, so that is why it appears to me to be purely advisory.

Yes, but note that they clearly state that the drone will be accompanied by a "real" airplane and pilot to provide separation. Therefore, the "rules" for a MTR are the same.....see and avoid. And, I guarantee that those UAS are going to be moving a LOT slower than most of the machines flying MTRs....

If you believe that Flight Service will be able to tell you when an MTR is "hot", I've got a bridge I'll make you a great deal on.

I specifically questioned both the FAA and Lockheed Martin on this subject.....turns out the military aircraft are required to report to FSS that they are entering and departing the route. But, there is no requirement that the military aircraft receive a response from that announcement. And, in fact FSS does not actually RECORD this information. Turns out that an F-16 entering an MTR reports, and just a few minutes later reports off the MTR, cause he's hauling ass and the route is only a hundred miles or so......at 640 kts, that doesn't take long. So, FSS doesn't record that information. So, you call FSS and unless you happen to talk to the specialist who just heard that F-16 report on the route, you won't get that information.....and in the L-M system, the likelihood of getting the same specialist is near zero.

So, your best bet is to call RANGE CONTROL if there is one. That's CTC as depicted on the Las Vegas chart.

Finally, again, WHAT CHART are you finding that legend on? As I noted earlier, the legend I posted is the CURRENT legend for the Las Vegas chart......where are you finding this new legend?????

How about helping us out, instead of posting stuff we can't locate?

MTV

mtv wrote:

lesuther wrote:Yep, that's the one. Brand new symbology for drone operations on the sectional. Instead of a single route, it is designated as an entire corridor.

No new regs as far as I can see, so that is why it appears to me to be purely advisory.

Yes, but note that they clearly state that the drone will be accompanied by a "real" airplane and pilot to provide separation...
MTV

It actually says "may be accompanied" not "will be..."

CW

clippwagon wrote:

mtv wrote:

lesuther wrote:Yep, that's the one. Brand new symbology for drone operations on the sectional. Instead of a single route, it is designated as an entire corridor.

No new regs as far as I can see, so that is why it appears to me to be purely advisory.

Yes, but note that they clearly state that the drone will be accompanied by a "real" airplane and pilot to provide separation...
MTV

It actually says "may be accompanied" not "will be..."

CW

Unless they're in Restricted airspace or accompanied by a manned aircraft, they can't operate in "our" airspace....yet. Not legally anyway.

MTV

mtv wrote:How about helping us out, instead of posting stuff we can't locate?

MTV

Google "FAA Sectional Legend"
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/aero_guide/

The revision history shows it was added on April 3 of this year.

I encountered a Reaper years ago with no escort. The FSS had absolutely no idea what I was talking about when I inquired. It was outside the fringe of an MOA, and the FSS said it wasn't hot. There was no MTR near where I was. Unless some sort of operational guidelines have changed, I doubt the military could care much less about keeping anyone up to date about where they are sending their UAV's.

lesuther wrote:

mtv wrote:How about helping us out, instead of posting stuff we can't locate?

MTV

Google "FAA Sectional Legend"
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/aero_guide/

The revision history shows it was added on April 3 of this year.

I encountered a Reaper years ago with no escort. The FSS had absolutely no idea what I was talking about when I inquired. It was outside the fringe of an MOA, and the FSS said it wasn't hot. There was no MTR near where I was. Unless some sort of operational guidelines have changed, I doubt the military could care much less about keeping anyone up to date about where they are sending their UAV's.

Military UAVs cannot operate in MOA airspace unless they are accompanied by a manned aircraft. If you met a Reaper there was most likely a contract aircraft around. And, last I heard, they still have to have a route approved. They can only operate in restricted airspace, or in positive controlled airspace (Class A).

But in any case they cannot legally operate in MOA airspace without escort.

MTV

mtv wrote:But in any case they cannot legally operate in MOA airspace without escort.MTV

Well, a pair of F-15s went under me and another hang glider pilot within a thousand feet in front of Mt. Princeton at well over a legal speed back in the day. And they turned off the lighting at a public airport without a Notam to do lights out, no radio T&G's with UAV's in NM...the FSS had no idea about that either.

There are rules, and then there is real life. I think it is magical thinking to think that these things stopped happening at any point. But at least it is on a map now.

lesuther wrote:

mtv wrote:But in any case they cannot legally operate in MOA airspace without escort.MTV

Well, a pair of F-15s went under me and another hang glider pilot within a thousand feet in front of Mt. Princeton at well over a legal speed back in the day. And they turned off the lighting at a public airport without a Notam to do lights out, no radio T&G's with UAV's in NM...the FSS had no idea about that either.

There are rules, and then there is real life. I think it is magical thinking to think that these things stopped happening at any point. But at least it is on a map now.

Do you know what a "legal speed" is for an F-15? And, did you get a look at their mach meters as they passed? Most fighters have exemptions to operate in excess of the 250 knot limit below 10,000 feet. For example, I can't recall exactly, but the F-16 is permitted to routinely operate at somewhere around 315 knots below 10 K.

Frankly, FSS has no clue about any of this stuff, and they're not the ones to call. When FSS in the lower 48 went over to L/M, a great deal was lost.

Call the CTC frequency if there is one. Range Control knows what's going on. FSS SHOULD know if a MOA is scheduled hot, but they only know that it's SCHEDULED hot, for example. If the military doesn't use it, they may not notify FSS. So, FSS isn't a very good resource for information on military airspace, but sometimes it's all we've got.

There's no doubt that on occasion some military flyers violate some regs.....and so do many civilian pilots I would respectfully point out.

I worked as the civilian representative on a military airspace proposal, and that was an eye opener, as to many of these issues.

But, I seriously doubt the military is operating UAVs in civilian airspace or MOA airspace without an escorting manned aircraft. Now, Restricted airspace, they can and do operate in. They've got too many people watching them, frankly, and too much to lose.

Thanks for posting the link to the SFO chart. That finally got me to the legend. The previous link you posted for chart legends expired in 2013, and it doesn't contain that verbiage. The page I posted earlier is from the current sectional aeronautical chart legend guide.

MTV

mtv wrote:

lesuther wrote:

mtv wrote:But in any case they cannot legally operate in MOA airspace without escort.MTV

Well, a pair of F-15s went under me and another hang glider pilot within a thousand feet in front of Mt. Princeton at well over a legal speed back in the day. And they turned off the lighting at a public airport without a Notam to do lights out, no radio T&G's with UAV's in NM...the FSS had no idea about that either.

There are rules, and then there is real life. I think it is magical thinking to think that these things stopped happening at any point. But at least it is on a map now.

Do you know what a "legal speed" is for an F-15? And, did you get a look at their mach meters as they passed? Most fighters have exemptions to operate in excess of the 250 knot limit below 10,000 feet. For example, I can't recall exactly, but the F-16 is permitted to routinely operate at somewhere around 315 knots below 10 K.

Frankly, FSS has no clue about any of this stuff, and they're not the ones to call. When FSS in the lower 48 went over to L/M, a great deal was lost.

Call the CTC frequency if there is one. Range Control knows what's going on. FSS SHOULD know if a MOA is scheduled hot, but they only know that it's SCHEDULED hot, for example. If the military doesn't use it, they may not notify FSS. So, FSS isn't a very good resource for information on military airspace, but sometimes it's all we've got.

There's no doubt that on occasion some military flyers violate some regs.....and so do many civilian pilots I would respectfully point out.

I worked as the civilian representative on a military airspace proposal, and that was an eye opener, as to many of these issues.

But, I seriously doubt the military is operating UAVs in civilian airspace or MOA airspace without an escorting manned aircraft. Now, Restricted airspace, they can and do operate in. They've got too many people watching them, frankly, and too much to lose.

Thanks for posting the link to the SFO chart. That finally got me to the legend. The previous link you posted for chart legends expired in 2013, and it doesn't contain that verbiage. The page I posted earlier is from the current sectional aeronautical chart legend guide.

MTV

The standard waivered airspeed below 10k' for tactical aircraft is 300kts

As for FSS, military procedure hasn't changed. Aircraft check on and off the route with FSS, but the best FSS can do with that info if you query them is tell you if the route is scheduled or if aircraft have checked on and off. Typical airspeeds for tactical aircraft (the ones that are hard to see) is 420-500 kts and they can run those routes for extended distances. Routes have always been defined as a "tunnel" of airspace - both width and altitude are depicted and vary along the route. On the route aircraft have a discrete squawk, though in many cases they'll be flying below radar coverage. So if you're in touch with a radar facility they may be able to see them, or not.

Range control may be a relevant agency to talk to around certain complexes (Nellis comes to mind) but there are many routes that don't terminate in a range, so no range control.

All that aside, any UAS outside a special use airspace must meet see and avoid requirements - that would mean, at a minimum, an escort. News to me that they want to use IRs but it makes sense given how those routes are designed.

The best thing you can do with regard to MTRs, regardless of what type of aircraft is using them or at what speed, is be aware of where they fall relative to your route of flight and be especially vigilant when crossing them.

Thanks, Vick, good info.

In meetings with FSS on the MTR reporting issues, I was stunned to learn that, while military aircraft are required to report entering and leaving a route, FSS doesn't even log that info. No record of it is kept. So, if I call FSS and ask if a MTR or MOA is hot, unless I'm talking to the Specialist who heard the military aircraft report, all they'll be able to tell me is whether the airspace is scheduled hot, but not whether there's anyone in it.

That's not the military's fault, and at the meeting where that was explained, the military aviators present were just as incredulous as me.

Maybe that's changed recently, but I doubt it.

See and avoid is still the governing principal, and if you're flying through an MTR, bear in mind those military aircraft are camouflaged and hauling ass. And they are probably NOT flying straight and level....they're jinking and maneuvering to look for threats.

I once had a B 52 fly UNDER me when I was at 1200 feet, maneuvering. There was no MTR, no MOA, but they were perfectly legal to be there, just like me.....less than 250 kts below 10,000.

MTV