We have had close to 6 feet or so of snow around here. Figured it was time to put skis on the plane. Our circuit around here just got interesting! Above 8000' we have close to 10' of snow. Skiing has been all time for November! It feels like February around here.

Anyone else have skis on in the Sierra's?....Or if your in the need of a ski vacation, Tahoe is as good as it gets now. More snow coming in tonight for a few days.




Truckee Airport




Squaw Valley

Nice!! This winter is turning out to be awesome so far in the snowfall dept.

How does a person go about learning ski flying? It seems to me that there is bit of a learning curve regarding depth and quality of snow you should land, and how to evaluate it. Unlike soft dirt, water, sand, etc, it seems that snow would have the most variability. Did you have prior experience Kevin?

What brand skis are those? Do your mains rotate forward on that arm so that they site atop the ski, or is your tire effectively always touching snow? I've seen the Wip penetration skis that are hydraulically engaged, and straight skis, but am not clear on how yours work.

Awesome, looking forward to some ski flying pics!

I was up at Squaw this weekend and the conditions were amazing.

Zane-

Have a lot of experience as a passenger but zero (until today) as a pilot with them. I do know that I need to drag landings as much as possible, carry snow shoes and a shovel along with everything else to spend the night. Have some friends that work at Talkeetna Air taxi along with others I have spoken to obtaining as much knowledge as possible. Landing in a stall seems best but will continue to play and post the experience here.

My big question to many of them was should I put the tail ski on or leave the big bush wheel. They said as a novice ski flyer use the tail ski but as I gain expereince I may want the BW to penetrate and allow a quicker stop. K2, TKA, and others have set ups both ways. On uphill landings where you need to stop they like the BW to stop quickly. On the standard landings they like the tail ski. I dont know what I like but for now its the tail ski.

The skis are hydraulic. The wheel comes up on the lever arm and sits the tire on top of the ski. Then you switch back to wheels (down by the fuel selector) and pump the wheels back over the arm and down. Just like pumping your gear down in an RG. It takes about 20 or so pumps for it to lock.

Total conversion took about 2 hours to change tail wheel and mains with the skis.

You could say I am pretty humble about the idea of just going out and landing anywhere. Will see. For now its the ranchs we have been landing and next to the runways (at least for tomorrows flight anyhow).

Will keep you posted on the progression.

Well, I know you know how to ski (on your own 2 legs) pow fast...speed to float, and you know what a bomb hole/hot tub is. So avoid that I guess.

Hopefully I can pass on the later (hot tubs and bomb holes )

The funny thing is that there are no check outs our enndorsements for skis. Its like what Warren Miller has always said..."you want your skis, go get them!" It baffles me that you can just put them on and go for it. My palms are getting sweaty again just thinking about it.
I guess thats the fun part.

aktahoe1 wrote:Hopefully I can pass on the later (hot tubs and bomb holes )

The funny thing is that there are no check outs our enndorsements for skis. Its like what Warren Miller has always said..."you want your skis, go get them!" It baffles me that you can just put them on and go for it. My palms are getting sweaty again just thinking about it.
I guess thats the fun part.

Just don't tell the FAA....you wouldn't want them to design a rating for skis.

Like you said earlier..take shovel, snowshoes, lots of survival gear. At some point you WILL spend the night out there somewhere. Bear in mind that a C 180 on Fluidyne skis is NOT a very good ski plane in deep snow....trust me.

MTV

They best thing for transitioning to skis is having a float rating (or being a really good attitude flying pilot). When learning to fly floats my instructor really hammered on the attitude flying.

Rather than having to "stall" (which isn't bad if done right) it is more important to touch the ground with the right vertical speed. Many people get caught up in having to stall the plane, they will hold it off until it drops. That is fine if you are 6 inches off the water/snow when it happens. However if you are 10 feet up and the bottom drops out get ready for a wild ride. Setting your attitude and using power to adjust decent rate will make for a better landing every time. You may contact the ground a few miles an hour faster than the full stall, however I would preferred to have a controlled landing with some extra speed compared to the alternative. After some time practicing the technique you can get it so that you really have no extra speed.

When I transitioned to skis no one in the area knew about ski flying so I hoped in and went. Practiced some taxi, then takeoff and landing at my home airport before moving on to the lakes. I also set limits for myself to only land placed that I had walked or knew very well. Having an extensive knowledge of skiing (on 2 feet) helped because I knew how the snow would react.

Mike

PS Zane, I will email you today about those foot skis

aktahoe1 wrote:.....The skis are hydraulic. The wheel comes up on the lever arm and sits the tire on top of the ski. Then you switch back to wheels (down by the fuel selector) and pump the wheels back over the arm and down. Just like pumping your gear down in an RG. It takes about 20 or so pumps for it to lock.......

I have no experience with ski's, but it sure looks to me from the pics that the main wheels are still attached to the MLG in the normal fashion, so the wheels stay put and you pump the ski's up or down. My common sense tells me the same thing, but it is minimal & always suspect so I gotta go with the pics.

Getting ready to go fly here in a bit and spent the morning surfing ALL of the airplane sites.

MTV- I do take your advice seriously and have heard they are not the best for DEEP snow but are one of best for OVERALL operations?? You actually reference that in another forum. They are basically the same as LH-4000 with the same performance, weight, surface area, etc.

I dont really know much or for that matter anything about ski flying, I rely on many folks opinions and again anyone experience is great beta to read for certain!

MTV-It seems like you do have a lot of experience and as I have stated before to you (also in an email) its very much appreciated. I do however have take it with a grain salt as the only experience I can trust is my own obviously. I do find it crazy that your on every forum thats out there. Your opinion is obviously well taken so keep giving it to me....please. Maybe share a story with us on how to get stuck with your hydraulic skis and have to spend a week digging out or something cool like that.

Anyone read the Don Sheldon story about him being on final 10 miles out with no go around and then landing and burying his wings and having to dig out for a week? I cannot imagine that!

Back to my own ski flying education. I am thinking a touch of speed is my friend with a tail low attitude is the best. Going out now and hoping I dont get stuck or create any bomb holes! Yee Ha! Sweaty palms have just started up again....Stay tuned!

Beautiful bird, very cool pictures! thanks and good luck, I look forward to hearing about your adventure.

aktahoe1 wrote:MTV- I do take your advice seriously and have heard they are not the best for DEEP snow but are one of best for OVERALL operations?? You actually reference that in another forum. They are basically the same as LH-4000 with the same performance, weight, surface area, etc.

MTV: I do find it crazy that your on every forum thats out there. Your opinion is obviously well taken so keep giving it to me....please. Maybe share a story with us on how to get stuck with your hydraulic skis and have to spend a week digging out or something cool like that.

aktahoe,

I don't believe I've EVER said anywhere that the Fluidyne skis are best at anything. Like amphibious floats, retractable skis GENERALLY are a compromise, and the Fluidyne skis are definitely a compromise. That said, if you need retractable skis, they are one of the few out there. They are most definitely NOT the same as the LH-4000 skis made by Landes Airglas, though. The Airglas skis are much bigger bottoms and MUCH lighter than the Fluidyne/Wipaire skis are. Nevertheless, they are what you have, and most days, that's as good as it's going to get. Of the three most commonly available retractable wheel skis for a 180/185 (LH 4000, Fli-Lite 4000, and these) the Fluidynes are my least favorite. They are bullet proof, relatively speaking, and that's good. Float in deep snow they don't.

As to me being on "every forum thats out there"--hardly. The only forums I visit regularly are this one and Supercub.org. whatever.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct that you learn ski flying best through your own experience. Getting that experience can be painful at times, but the good news is that ski flying mistakes rarely hurt anyone. As long as you're well prepared.

When I worked in northern AK, the first five years or so the only ski plane I had access to was a 185 on....you guessed it--Fluidyne 3600 retractable skis. I got stuck on several occasions as I learned what to do and what not to do, where to land and where not to land. Deep snow (127 inches on the ground one winter in the early 90s) is NOT a good place for ANY retractable ski on a 180/185, and especially the 3600s.

Story: Taking a recurrent ski checkride with one of our check airmen. Early spring in the year with 127 inches of snow. Flew south of FAI along the Tanana River, found a meadow complex and started laying tracks. After perhaps a dozen or so passes to "build a runway" by packing the snow down, I opted to land. Bad choice, it turned out. I was actually landing on a crust that was about 2 feet down, but there were several feet more snow under that crust. As long as I kept some speed up, the plane would stay up on the crust. As soon as I slowed to a walk, the plane fell through the crust....right up to it's wings. Grrrrr.

Break out the snowshoes, and commence building a ramp and improving my "runway" that I'd made with the multiple passes. Jump in plane, fire up, start takeoff, and slide off the track into deep snow again.

Repeat four times.

We are now running out of meadow. The Check airman eyes the willows and cottonwoods at the end of the meadow and announces that what we need to do is one person fly the plane off here, the other snowshoe back to the other end. The flyer would takeoff and circle around and land at the beginning of the tracks and pick up the other. That would give us more room for the heavier takeoff. Having noted the proximity of the brush and low trees, I suggested that HE do the takeoff, and I snowshoe....courtesy and all.

His response: "It's your airplane and your checkride--you're flying, I'm walking". Crap.

I mounted up and started the engine. He came over and knocked on the window....I opened the window and asked him what he wanted. His response: "You DO realize that if you DON'T come back to pick me up, you'll fail the checkride, right?" Roger that.

I did manage to take off, only hanging a couple branches in the skis and turning the prop blades a little green as I passed the brushline. I circled around, landed much further back in the tracks AFTER having run the tracks out with another ten or so passes with the skis in the snow. He climbed aboard, and we instantly got stuck again.

Shoveled, snowshoed, etc for another couple hours, and managed to launch. About the time we got airborne, one of our airplanes came looking for us, since our flight plan had expired. Good to know your safety net is there, albeit a bit late.

This whole process took about 5 hours. After returning to FAI, the check airman was filling out the paperwork, and asked me when my next checkride was scheduled for. I responded "June, on floats". His response: "I'll bring my swim suit".

That night I slept better than I ever have. Totally exhausted, but happy to be sleeping at home, rather than in a frozen swamp.

One piece of advise: Be VERY careful turning that airplane around by hand with the skis in the down position. That's a heavy airplane, and it is quite easy to torque the ski axles and crack them. They are NOT cheap, and generally the way you find out they're cracked is by landing, and having one depart the plane....the ski that is....right out to the end of it's check cables, at which point the ski beats the hell out of your pretty plane. Which may not make any difference, because the wheel digging in may cause more damage in any case.

MTV

Hmmm... It must be snowing / wind howling and about -15 in Crookston today... with Lutefisk for supper and no skis on the airplane yet...

Hotrod- The wheels definitely come up and over and then onto the skis. You pump them up and over. Did it several times to bleed lines before heading out. Was not sure about the skis supporting the plane weight then common sense said they have to so we tried it and thats what they do.

MTV- Your the man! Your story is great! When I say your on every forum, you kind of are it seems but whatever like you say. Your comments and statements are generally the ones I read top to bottom rather than skipping over many of them.

BRD- Thats a nice looking 170? What kind of skis are they?

Going flying now...

The skis are Federal AWB 2500A skis. Your skis are better than these, but again, they're all a compromise.

BRD,

Nope--gorgeous day today here....just got classes to teach. Flying tomorrow.

But, you're right, the skis aren't on yet.

MTV

aktahoe1 wrote:Hotrod- The wheels definitely come up and over and then onto the skis.

...as do the axles, gear legs, and airframe- the whole shooting match. Maybe that's the confusion here.

Have Fun, AK Tahoe. I put mine on a couple weeks ago. Too bad it's in the negative 20s here today- kind of hampers the urge to use 'em, even though it's utterly CAVU.

The worst time I've had on skis recently revolved (quite literally) around having one ski with an iced bottom, and one with a clear bottom. I just did donuts up and down the runway until the daylight gave out!

But that still doesn't hold a candle to the best times I've had on skis

-DP

I can't remember if I've posted this before, but my climbing partner and I had the pleasure one time of digging Jay Hudson's 185 out of five feet of fresh snow in Little Switzerland (South side of the Alaska Range).

It had dumped for a whole week, and then it cleared. We packed a runway, per Jay's instructions. Unfortunately, Jay miscalculated and thought he could land in the fresh snow, and let his momentum carry him right to the beginning of our packed runway. He bogged down about 100 yards from the packed snow. The plane immediately listed hard to the left, and I remember fuel pouring out of the downhill vent. I don't know how a 185 is plumbed to explain this, but I remember it pretty vividly. We grabbed avalanche shovels and snowshoes and hustled to start digging where Jay directed us to. Of course, the plane just buried itself deeper initially, until we had firm compacted snow beneath the skis. Then we excavated a long ramp from the plane to the runway. The plane was also facing the wrong way, so we got to hold onto a strut while Jay applied takeoff power, with the prop barely above the snow surface. The funny thing was that all our clothing had been provided by a gear manufacturer for product testing. We figured that standing on a glacier in the snowy prop blast of a C-185 qualified as a fair test of the outerwear.

Eventually, the plane heaved itself up to the runway, with us completely frozen and wind-blasted. We chucked all our gear willy-nilly into expedition duffels (we'd already been tent bound for a week, and we were pretty excited to get out of there, I guess). This included a half-full MSR pot of dinner noodles, and some other none-too savory stuff. (We were voluntarily using poop collection cans years before the NPS started to require them.) Shortly after loading, we were rumbling down the runway, again under takeoff power. This happened before my piloting days, so flying was mostly foreign to me at this point, but I recall looking out the window and thinking that we were moving about as fast a a tractor that is plowing a field. Sometime in the course of the takeoff attempt, we also departed our packed surface, and proceeded on down the Pika glacier, toward the confluence with the Kahiltna glacier. I expect Jay was hoping that the added incline would work in our favor, but soon enough it was clear that that wouldn't be the case.

Halfway down the Pika, but well before the crevasse field where it empties into the Kahiltna, Jay had us get out and take out all our gear. Once again we stood in the prop blast and helped him turn the plane around for the lumbering struggle back up-glacier, which he somehow accomplished, again at tractor-plowing speed. Meanwhile, we shouldered all the gear or clipped it to our harnesses, and began the trudge back ourselves. About this time, Jay was getting to be overdue, and Paul Roderick of TAT deviated over to see what was up. Paul succeeded in setting tracks for Jay to use, by performing numerous touch and goes. With the tracks laid, Jay was confident enough of his ability to get airborne himself, but he broke it to us that we would be spending another night, and he'd return in the morning if it was good and try to get us again then. I suspect he was also pretty low on fuel at that point, and that may have factored into his decision too. Either way we didn't question it, although it did mean reconstructing camp from the shamble of gear inside the duffels.

With a plan for the morning set, and Paul circling above to warn Jay where the crevasses were, we watched his plane lumber down-glacier one more time. It's amazing how small a C-185 looks compared to the scale of the Alaska Range, and pretty shortly even the drone of the engine sounded pretty feeble and distant. As we watched him disappear over a crest on the glacier, I confess we had our doubts as to how it was all going to play out. But just as we were seriously eyeing the skis and thinking about racking up for a crevasse rescue, we saw him climb out and circle back around, engine reverberating off the sheer walls of the surrounding granite peaks.

True to word, and with good weather holding, Jay came back for us first thing the next morning. Still wishing to keep it light, he flew my partner out first, and then returned for me. That hour, completely by myself on a postcard-perfect, utterly peaceful glacier turned out to be one of the lasting highlights of that trip. But all too soon it seemed, Jay dropped back in out of the blue sky, loaded me up, and it was back to civilization for a heaping breakfast at the Talkeetna Roadhouse. One detail that stands out is that for all his added flight time and trouble, he didn't charge us one additional cent.

Lest anyone draw the wrong conclusions, Jay Hudson was one of the best, IMHO. He flew single engine planes in the Alaska Range from the youngest legal age, right up until the very end. It was my honor to know him and to fly with him, on more than one occasion. This account isn't meant to convey anything other than the fullest respect for a fine aviator and human being.

-Denalipilot

@#$% that! I'll take the rain.

Good stories, though.

gb

Great story, DP. Thanks.

Great stories! Thats what I'm talking about!

So, you could say I am compeltey freaking out! Its completely unreal!!!

14 landings today, 6 different spots. Snow was maybe 12-16 inches (what skiers call hot pow)

HOW DO YOU TURN AROUND IN A TIGHT SPACE??? Seems like the throttle is your friend and you need to work it. Advice??

Was taking me about a 200 foot area to turn around.

Here are 3 pics from todays glorious events!