Green Hornet wrote:

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:

porterjet wrote:Quite a few jets even have VGs. The bad news is that since they came with the airplane they are also on the MEL. One gone is normally OK, depending on the type airplane, but two and you are grounded.

My installation came with an addendum sticker to the AFM indicating the airplane is unairworthy if four or more are missing.

I remember that same addendum but I also got a bunch of spares and some glue. I have only lost one in 3 years when I got a paint touch up that I attribute to human error. VG's is just another prefilght check that is on the list.

Winter wing covers do it for me

I'm much more careful now putting them on and taking them off than my first year when I was constantly popping them. Occasionally one pops off with the cover. As you say relatively easy to replace. At least that is what my A&P says

Green Hornet wrote:I had the Micro dynamics, the only brand PMA'd for the Maules installed 3 years ago. Like someone else said makes a big difference on slow speed landing control as does gap seals and little or no trim.

Bill & Flight:

Sportsman STOL kit ,NO VG's(nor do I want any) or Flap Gap seals .VG's are great for low speed control on landing but NOTHING for the take off . That's my .02 cent worth . I'm a Cessna Pilots Association Rigging
Class Graduate .I do 8-12 rigging jobs a year from 150's to P-210's . My old 182 fly's hands off until it runs out of gas .Cruise speed is as good or better than book speed. The eccentric cams are the VERY LAST THING TO CHANGE .If you don't know what your doing you can really screw things up.

I remember that same addendum but I also got a bunch of spares and some glue. I have only lost one in 3 years when I got a paint touch up that I attribute to human error. VG's is just another prefilght check that is on the list.[/quote]

Winter wing covers do it for me

I'm much more careful now putting them on and taking them off than my first year when I was constantly popping them. Occasionally one pops off with the cover. As you say relatively easy to replace. At least that is what my A&P says [/quote]
You have much more patients and energy than I do I put on a fuselage cover and elevator covers but I just get the metal wings spot sanded and painted when needed. If I don't find a hangar soon I'll need a new fuselage cover but it has lasted 6 years of abuse.

182 STOL driver wrote:

Green Hornet wrote:I had the Micro dynamics, the only brand PMA'd for the Maules installed 3 years ago. Like someone else said makes a big difference on slow speed landing control as does gap seals and little or no trim.

Bill & Flight:

Sportsman STOL kit ,NO VG's(nor do I want any) or Flap Gap seals .VG's are great for low speed control on landing but NOTHING for the take off . That's my .02 cent worth . I'm a Cessna Pilots Association Rigging
Class Graduate .I do 8-12 rigging jobs a year from 150's to P-210's . My old 182 fly's hands off until it runs out of gas .Cruise speed is as good or better than book speed. The eccentric cams are the VERY LAST THING TO CHANGE .If you don't know what your doing you can really screw things up.

Hey Stinger 61b,
From what I can tell from the years on this forum and the Maule forum the Cessna 182 and the Maule's are very different in many ways. Most Maule drivers like VG's, & gap seals but one thing I'm certain about it is relative to the man & the machine. What ever works for you is all that really matters. We all have our idiosyncrasies! That said you are right about the rigging if it is not done right it can be one big headache:D
BlackWidow 26G

Green Hornet wrote:

182 STOL driver wrote:

Green Hornet wrote:I had the Micro dynamics, the only brand PMA'd for the Maules installed 3 years ago. Like someone else said makes a big difference on slow speed landing control as does gap seals and little or no trim.

Bill & Flight:

Sportsman STOL kit ,NO VG's(nor do I want any) or Flap Gap seals .VG's are great for low speed control on landing but NOTHING for the take off . That's my .02 cent worth . I'm a Cessna Pilots Association Rigging
Class Graduate .I do 8-12 rigging jobs a year from 150's to P-210's . My old 182 fly's hands off until it runs out of gas .Cruise speed is as good or better than book speed. The eccentric cams are the VERY LAST THING TO CHANGE .If you don't know what your doing you can really screw things up.

Hey Stinger 61b,
From what I can tell from the years on this forum and the Maule forum the Cessna 182 and the Maule's are very different in many ways. Most Maule drivers like VG's, & gap seals but one thing I'm certain about it is relative to the man & the machine. What ever works for you is all that really matters. We all have our idiosyncrasies! That said you are right about the rigging if it is not done right it can be one big headache:D
BlackWidow 26G

Yep --- STINGER 93

Green Hornet wrote:


You have much more patients and energy than I do I put on a fuselage cover and elevator covers but I just get the metal wings spot sanded and painted when needed.

Is that a new method for removing ice and snow before flight?

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:

Green Hornet wrote:


You have much more patients and energy than I do I put on a fuselage cover and elevator covers but I just get the metal wings spot sanded and painted when needed.

Is that a new method for removing ice and snow before flight?

I forgot to mention the Ice Pick! But in all honesty Mother natures sun is the old man's way since I'm in no hurry these days

Most of the Micro Aerodynamics kits have the provision that you can fly with up to THREE VG's missing, as long as no two missing VGs are next to each other, and as long as no more than two of the missing VGs are on one wing.

Glue them on right to start with, and they won't come off. The manufacturer's recommendations on the amount of stick-um to use will result in replacing a lot of VGs. Put some GLUE on those things, and they'll stick.

MTV

182 STOL driver wrote:.........
Sportsman STOL kit ,NO VG's(nor do I want any) or Flap Gap seals .VG's are great for low speed control on landing but NOTHING for the take off . That's my .02 cent worth ...........

Are you saying you wouldn't want more low-speed control? And when you say "nothing for the takeoff", I assume you're talking about shortening the takeoff roll? My main reason for considering VG's is the improvement in low-speed control, any possible reduction in stall speed or takeoff roll would just be frosting on the cake.
With the exception of MTV's "variable stall speed" observation, the only drawbacks to a VG installation noted (other than the money spent) seem to be the VG's jabbing things or being knocked off or making wing covers a PITA. Any other down-side observations regarding flyability?

mtv wrote:Most of the Micro Aerodynamics kits have the provision that you can fly with up to THREE VG's missing, as long as no two missing VGs are next to each other, and as long as no more than two of the missing VGs are on one wing.

Glue them on right to start with, and they won't come off. The manufacturer's recommendations on the amount of stick-um to use will result in replacing a lot of VGs. Put some GLUE on those things, and they'll stick.

MTV

I think it would be very interesting to take a well-rigged airplane and put VGs on just one wing and see what the results are. I would imagine that you would find very little asymmetry in just about any flight scenario. I was recently flying a Helio Courier in calm air and the outboard slat on the starboard wing was deployed and the other three elements remained retracted. It stayed this way from 60 mph indicated down to about the upper 40s. There was no rolling tendency, and I couldn't feel it in the controls one bit. I guarantee that the slats on the Helio are more effective boundary layer control devices than a set of VGs.

Perhaps Micro is giving their VGs a little more credit than is due by asserting that more than two VGs off of one wing would produce some critical situation.

hotrod150 wrote:

182 STOL driver wrote:.........
Sportsman STOL kit ,NO VG's(nor do I want any) or Flap Gap seals .VG's are great for low speed control on landing but NOTHING for the take off . That's my .02 cent worth ...........

Are you saying you wouldn't want more low-speed control? And when you say "nothing for the takeoff", I assume you're talking about

He's wrong. VG's lower stall speed. That works for both landing and takeoff.

Since installing Micro VG's back in June, I have noticed the following: (1) in departure mode (WOT, 2600rpm, no flaps) my '56 182 will simply not stall. No matter how long I hold the yoke to my belly, the airplane just hangs there. It did NOT do that before I installed the VG's; (2) in landing configuration (40 flaps) the airplane does not "break" when it stalls; instead, it buffets ever-so-slightly and then the nose gently lowers and the airplane continues on. It did NOT do that before I installed the VG's; and (3) in landing configuration, the stall speed is lower by at least 5 mph compared to pre-VG numbers. It could be more and this weekend I plan to do more testing to find out just where the edge of the envelope is. My goal in installing the VG's was not to try and turn a C-182 into a Super Cub, but rather to increase control (and safety) at the margins. I think the goal has been achieved and that the VG's have definitely made a difference, though it will take further testing to determine just how much. Then again, it might be my flap and aileron gap seals!!

dprathe wrote:........... My goal in installing the VG's was not to try and turn a C-182 into a Super Cub, but rather to increase control (and safety) at the margins. I think the goal has been achieved and that the VG's have definitely made a difference, though it will take further testing to determine just how much. Then again, it might be my flap and aileron gap seals!!

I think increasing safety by improving low-speed control was the original goal, at least for Micro. As I understand it, he started out with VG kits for twins which were supposed to improve control & lower the single engine VMC. At one time, engine-failure-on-takeoff type crashes in twins were all too common. Not so much now maybe.
I think your aileron seals no doubt help with the low-speed control, but what I've heard about flap seals for the Cessna barn-door flaps is that they are designed to improve cruise speed, and that they actually degrade the effects of deployed flaps. No personal experience with them however.
Doesn't do much for cruise speed, but the hinged flaps on ragwing Cessna's do get low-speed benefit from gap seals-- they lowered the stall speed on my rag 170 a noticable (though unquantified) amount. Unfortunately the ailerons were too puny to take much advantage of this for slower approaches. Adding VG's to a ragwing for improved aileron authority should allow the flap seals' benefits to make a difference.

I agree flap gap seals reduce drag induced by deploying the Fowler flaps, but I compensate for that by increasing my AOA a bit and flying slower. So, even with the flap gap seals I'm able to safely fly the same steep approaches I did without them. I don't think they help much in cruise but do think they help in climb, especially w/ one or two notches of flaps.

hey i was reading about vg's on th micro site. anyone have any experience with them on a taylorcraft. i read on this forum that they seemed to be the best on cubs and the wing on my tcrate seems simular. I have a friend that is an a&p so im sure instilation would be next to free so is it really worth it for the 695 dollars the kit costs plus shipping. Also a little off the subject i was thinking of getting 5 point harnesses instaled eventualy cause i know they can really save your butt if the worst happens. can u install them in any aircraft or is a stc or 337 required? about how much would two harnesses cost? any particular brand better? thanks abunch for any imput
-ATC

AlpineTCraft wrote:hey i was reading about vg's on th micro site. anyone have any experience with them on a taylorcraft. i read on this forum that they seemed to be the best on cubs and the wing on my tcrate seems simular. I have a friend that is an a&p so im sure instilation would be next to free so is it really worth it for the 695 dollars the kit costs plus shipping. Also a little off the subject i was thinking of getting 5 point harnesses instaled eventualy cause i know they can really save your butt if the worst happens. can u install them in any aircraft or is a stc or 337 required? about how much would two harnesses cost? any particular brand better? thanks abunch for any imput
-ATC

Use the search window button there is a lot on shoulder harness.

had them on my f19 and now also my f22 when I had them on my F 19 it dropped the stall speed down by about five which was great but even more noticeable than that was that you could pull the stick fullback and turn it using nothing but rudder pedals and it never offered to rollover one time with power at idle it never stalled it just started descending at about 400 feet and would immediately take off the moment you applied power, on my F-22 the results were pretty much the same although there was a bit of a stall break but still money well spent I wouldn't fly my Taylor craft without VGs it gives you an outstanding safety margin for the money

Just installed Micro VG's on a Horton equiped '65 c-180. Stall speed went from 46 kts to 40 kts TAS in level flight with power on. The plane was re-rigged by Beegles at the same time and that may have helped. (The eccentrics were way out before for a heavy wing.) The plane used to be very unpredictable at low speed and now it's rock solid. steve

ps. Beegles fixed the heavy left wing by curving the trailing edge of the left aileron up.

AlpineTCraft wrote:hey i was reading about vg's on th micro site. anyone have any experience with them on a taylorcraft. i read on this forum that they seemed to be the best on cubs and the wing on my tcrate seems simular. I have a friend that is an a&p so im sure instilation would be next to free so is it really worth it for the 695 dollars the kit costs plus shipping. Also a little off the subject i was thinking of getting 5 point harnesses instaled eventualy cause i know they can really save your butt if the worst happens. can u install them in any aircraft or is a stc or 337 required? about how much would two harnesses cost? any particular brand better? thanks abunch for any imput
-ATC

I've got T-Craft time, and lots of vg time, but not both at the same time. No vg's on my BC-12D when I had it in other words. I would have to agree with the other poster that it would be an awesome combination! I also agree that the increase in low speed handling is even more better then the reduction in stall speed.

The price is what it is for the certified planes, you'll get EVERYTHING you need, except a step ladder, in the package, including spare vg's (I've never lost one), and the stencil makes it an easy half day at most job. Be prepared to not fully realize what they can do for the low end performance increase, it will go against the grain to fully exploit the performance increase right away, you'll need to combine the increased elevator authority (vg's on the hor stab) with the "better" wing airflow, and then it's magic. I wish like hell I'd known about them when I had my T-Craft. BTW, no scientific claim here, but the Rans S-7S airfoil is T-Craft like, high praise indeed!

Installed some new Halls Bros. vortex generators, taped on for placement testing. The plane flew well with them, at least no adverse affects were noticed. Take-offs were fairly quick, roll out with 15 degrees of flaps was about 90', but due to the weather (18 mph crosswind), conditions were less than ideal for testing.