The Pacers I've flown on floats at Don Lee's had a ring on the end of the water rudder cable, which was routed through the belly up through the cockpit floorboards. To put the water rudders down, you pull up the ring and hook it on a hook at the base of the panel. It loads some springs on the rudders themselves, which will retract without tension.

This is in contrast to, for instance, my buddy's 185 which has a lever on the floor that you position fore or aft. Definitely a little cleaner.

Anyone seen anything cleaner than the ring and hook method on old Pipers?

Zane,

Maybe I misunderstood your description, and I've never seen Lee's pacers.

BUT, in all the similar type setups I've been around, the ring or handle hooks onto a hook in the water rudder "UP" or retracted, position. Lift the ring/handle, and lower the water rudders.

All our Cubs and Huskys had a kind of hook shaped aluminum handle that hooked into a fitting on the side panel. Lower the water rudders by unhooking the handle, then lower it to the floor. Raise the rudders by grabbing the handle, and pull it up and hook it on the fitting on side wall or instrument panel.

It is a very simple and elegant setup, and it works. Can't ask for much more.

MTV

mtv wrote:Zane,

Maybe I misunderstood your description, and I've never seen Lee's pacers.

BUT, in all the similar type setups I've been around, the ring or handle hooks onto a hook in the water rudder "UP" or retracted, position. Lift the ring/handle, and lower the water rudders.

All our Cubs and Huskys had a kind of hook shaped aluminum handle that hooked into a fitting on the side panel. Lower the water rudders by unhooking the handle, then lower it to the floor. Raise the rudders by grabbing the handle, and pull it up and hook it on the fitting on side wall or instrument panel.

It is a very simple and elegant setup, and it works. Can't ask for much more.

MTV

No, you're right. I'm in a covid dream. All 5 hours of time in those Pacers on floats didn't imprint enough.

Was just trying to think of a way to keep it all on the floor.

Zzz wrote:

mtv wrote:Zane,

Maybe I misunderstood your description, and I've never seen Lee's pacers.

BUT, in all the similar type setups I've been around, the ring or handle hooks onto a hook in the water rudder "UP" or retracted, position. Lift the ring/handle, and lower the water rudders.

All our Cubs and Huskys had a kind of hook shaped aluminum handle that hooked into a fitting on the side panel. Lower the water rudders by unhooking the handle, then lower it to the floor. Raise the rudders by grabbing the handle, and pull it up and hook it on the fitting on side wall or instrument panel.

It is a very simple and elegant setup, and it works. Can't ask for much more.

MTV

No, you're right. I'm in a covid dream. All 5 hours of time in those Pacers on floats didn't imprint enough.

Was just trying to think of a way to keep it all on the floor.

PeeKay and EDO both made a lever type retract handle that mounted on the tunnel in the 180/185. I don't know how well that'd work on a Pacer floor, might be a bit of a reach, unless the pilot is "ape-like" . Handles on those are only about a foot long, and work fine, bring it over center and then slightly more and it'll stay put.

MTV

The levers come with all their own problems like getting caught on everything and weird ergonomics. I’d stick with the string n ring.

Sounds good. Just wondered if there was something better I wasn't aware of. Thanks.

Zzz wrote:Sounds good. Just wondered if there was something better I wasn't aware of. Thanks.

I bet there are some cool ways to improve it thinking outside the box a bit. Sorta like cubcrafters moving the flap handle up to the ceiling.

The ring on a cable is simple and light. Only issue I have is bending over to grasp it when retracting the water rudders. My solution was to add a piece of para cord to the ring and ring retainer. This was long enough for the water rudders to deploy, but also gave me the ability to pull up on the ring without having to bend over.

WWhunter wrote:The ring on a cable is simple and light. Only issue I have is bending over to grasp it when retracting the water rudders. My solution was to add a piece of para cord to the ring and ring retainer. This was long enough for the water rudders to deploy, but also gave me the ability to pull up on the ring without having to bend over.

That’s a good idea. Sometimes finding that “handle” can be busier than desirable.

I had a Pee Kay overcenter lever in my 170 and in several 180/185/206 seaplanes I flew. Worked fine, but in those planes, it was mounted on top or along side of the tunnel.

Either will work….simpler is good.

MTV

Imagine you have your Piper Pacer instrument panel completely torn out and there is a bare steel crossbar staring at you.

I'm adding new cable control supports, so should I add something for the water rudder hook? Like a little round stock eyelet? Or is it enough to add that to the aluminum of the panel?

mtv wrote:

Zzz wrote:

mtv wrote:Zane,

Maybe I misunderstood your description, and I've never seen Lee's pacers.

BUT, in all the similar type setups I've been around, the ring or handle hooks onto a hook in the water rudder "UP" or retracted, position. Lift the ring/handle, and lower the water rudders.

All our Cubs and Huskys had a kind of hook shaped aluminum handle that hooked into a fitting on the side panel. Lower the water rudders by unhooking the handle, then lower it to the floor. Raise the rudders by grabbing the handle, and pull it up and hook it on the fitting on side wall or instrument panel.

It is a very simple and elegant setup, and it works. Can't ask for much more.

MTV

No, you're right. I'm in a covid dream. All 5 hours of time in those Pacers on floats didn't imprint enough.

Was just trying to think of a way to keep it all on the floor.

PeeKay and EDO both made a lever type retract handle that mounted on the tunnel in the 180/185. I don't know how well that'd work on a Pacer floor, might be a bit of a reach, unless the pilot is "ape-like" . Handles on those are only about a foot long, and work fine, bring it over center and then slightly more and it'll stay put.

MTV

Flew a carbon cub with pk anfibs with the 180 style lever. It was on the floor, and worked backwards. It sucked. Give me the conventional cub style.


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Zane,

There’s so little forces on the water rudder retract system, I’d just finish the panel and add a hook then. Doesn’t need to be structural.

And I’d see if I could find one of those EDO water rudder retract handles. It’s a curved aluminum casting that fits your hand, the top has a horizontal slot that engages a fitting on the panel. The nice thing with these is they’re a lot easier to “find” with the rudders down, without having to scrabble around on the floor.

I’ll try to find a photo.

MTV

mtv wrote:Zane,

There’s so little forces on the water rudder retract system, I’d just finish the panel and add a hook then. Doesn’t need to be structural.

And I’d see if I could find one of those EDO water rudder retract handles. It’s a curved aluminum casting that fits your hand, the top has a horizontal slot that engages a fitting on the panel. The nice thing with these is they’re a lot easier to “find” with the rudders down, without having to scrabble around on the floor.

I’ll try to find a photo.

MTV

Atlee sells them

https://fadodge.com/water-rudder-pickup-handle-2/


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Tom wrote:

mtv wrote:Zane,

There’s so little forces on the water rudder retract system, I’d just finish the panel and add a hook then. Doesn’t need to be structural.

And I’d see if I could find one of those EDO water rudder retract handles. It’s a curved aluminum casting that fits your hand, the top has a horizontal slot that engages a fitting on the panel. The nice thing with these is they’re a lot easier to “find” with the rudders down, without having to scrabble around on the floor.

I’ll try to find a photo.

MTV

Atlee sells them

https://fadodge.com/water-rudder-pickup-handle-2/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Looks like $10 and a trip to the hardware store for a gate handle and draw latch then 2 minutes with a file would about do as well.

The cubs and cub like planes I’ve flown had some type of the hoop and book deal

Larger stuff I’ve flown had the lever, 185s on both ego and wips and 208s on wips

Always thought the lever was due to the extra force of the larger rudders.

Thought both worked well, obviously the floor lever needs a little more cockpit space

NineThreeKilo wrote:The cubs and cub like planes I’ve flown had some type of the hoop and book deal

Larger stuff I’ve flown had the lever, 185s on both ego and wips and 208s on wips

Always thought the lever was due to the extra force of the larger rudders.

Thought both worked well, obviously the floor lever needs a little more cockpit space

Beavers have the pull string like smaller planes. Takes some momentum to get it to the hook. I imagine they use this method because the flap lever takes up most of the space a retract handle would take.