Is it simply a wider taller footprint?

Mike

Nothing to do with footprint... Only advantage is the ability to run specific tires if your so inclined. For example, you can run a 8.5x10 and 29" Airhawk, but it requires a 10" wheel. Good for the height, but the 10" weighs a bunch. For example, the 29" Airhawk on 10" ABWs (non shaved) weighs around 55lb ea, where the 29" bushwheels on 6" wheels comes in around 38lbs. Big difference.

If you want the best off airport tire, go 6" wheel w/ 29" ABW. If you want long life for pavement ops, the Airhawk is a great choice. 29's are a bit stiff, so I would go with the 8.5x10s. Unfortunately these dont come in "shaved." 8.5x10's on 10" ABW wheels will weigh in just under 45lbs ea.

The advantage, performance-wise, is the ability to run a larger diameter tire and minimize sidewall deflection. It's the reason your car uses 15" or 16" wheels instead of 10" wheels. Can you imagine the roll/flex with a smaller wheel and more rubber?

In the context of airplane tires, there's a sweet spot for any given operation whether it's pavement chirping or crawling over river rock. If you want the largest possible diameter tire for minimized rolling resistance over obstacles, the 35" bushwheel is the ticket, but to optimize the flex of a tire that diameter at 4 psi somebody decided that 10" wheels should be used. 6" wheels seem to be the standard for light GA so many tires are designed around them, and they work well.

As Big Renna said, there are some great combos for 10" wheels. If you want real bushwheel super-flexy-supple performance at anything smaller than 35", you'll need 6" wheels.

Just want larger diameter and intend to run moderate tire pressures for working pavement and grass or dirt? The 29x10" Airhawk or 8.5x10 would work well.

At current time I believe the 10" wheels still use a 6" disc (actually 7.5" or so.) The possibility of being able to run a full 10" disc is a rumor I've heard (seen? ) The braking power would be increased, which is a consideration for those 35's for those who really get in short.

Here are my 29x10 air Hawks mounted on Cleveland wheels with gar aero adapters. 41.9 lbs each. I know the aluminum 10" bush wheels weigh more. Even being shaved these tires will last a very long time.

The stiff sidewall is good for control in crosswind landings. Bushwheel are great for the soft stuff. Depends on the mission.
DENNY

delete

I was the first person to ever run the 35" ABW tire. Here is how it happened and the reason they are on 10" wheels. Bill Duncan had created a tire for the Beaver and Porter. I was using 31" ABW at the time and wanted a bigger tire for landing on large rock. I knew Bill fairly well and asked him if he could take the mold he used to make the Beaver tire and make me a light weight set of 35" tires. The Beaver tire was heavy at around 65-70 pounds each and I wanted a tire that was close to the 31" weight with good flexibility. He said the he thought he could build a tire that weighed in at 40 pounds but he said there was not a 10" wheel that would work with my axle. I told him to build me a set of tires and I would machine the wheels. The next week the US Mail had delivered a set and I went to work machining some wheels.

The 10" wheel was used because the mold was already there (these are very expensive molds I think 30-40K).

I think the 10" wheel is good for the 35" ABW but if a mold would had to have been machined for the light weight 35" tire it may not have been a 10" wheel, it was never really a consideration for the light weight tire it just was what was easy. I have always thought an 8" wheel would have been better for the 35" tire.

Greg

Zzz wrote:
At current time I believe the 10" wheels still use a 6" disc (actually 7.5" or so.) The possibility of being able to run a full 10" disc is a rumor I've heard (seen? ) The braking power would be increased, which is a consideration for those 35's for those who really get in short.

To paraphrase...
Those who really want to flip the plane onto it's back! hehehe

I have been told that the sidewalls on the 31" and 35" ABW tires are too soft for heavy touring aircraft loaded at full gross, and landing on a slope or with considerable yaw is a pretty unnerving experience at max all up weight. I think that's where the 10" tire will come into it's own, for heavier aircraft like the C180, Maule, and Bearhawk.

I can lock my tires on any surface with my current two-puck brakes, 6" wheels and 26" tires. I am pretty happy that I have the balance right between weight and performance from my brakes for now. In the future (when I live closer to the backcountry and do less x-country flying), I foresee a set of Desser 31" tires and 10" wheels. Unless there is a big price drop from Airframes Alaska, or another new offering from some new market player, I think that's the most cost effective option for me.

Thanks for sharing the backstory Mauleguy.

Since your a machinist and have built your own wheels I'm curious; can you ballpark what it would cost to have a set of 10" wheels with bead lockers machined? I've been thinking about putting together some drawings of such a wheel and taking it to my local machinist. Based on past dealings I think I could get a set made for close to the same as a set of 10" wheels from ABI.

I think a set of one piece 10" bead locker wheels could work great to run those desser 31s tubeless. They'd also work with 29" Airhawks.

whee wrote:Thanks for sharing the backstory Mauleguy.

Since your a machinist and have built your own wheels I'm curious; can you ballpark what it would cost to have a set of 10" wheels with bead lockers machined? I've been thinking about putting together some drawings of such a wheel and taking it to my local machinist. Based on past dealings I think I could get a set made for close to the same as a set of 10" wheels from ABI.

I think a set of one piece 10" bead locker wheels could work great to run those desser 31s tubeless. They'd also work with 29" Airhawks.

What do you mean by "with bead lockers machined", Whee? I would have just modified an existing wheel with a drill...

Or are you thinking of machining in space for an o-ring to seal the two halves so you can run tubeless? I looked into that, but you need purpose built wheels with enough meat left at the joint for the o-ring to fit into.
The other option I thought of was an RTV or paper gasket, but that's not solid design...

larger brakes or not having to run two calipers would be a thought, not sure what is out there for brakes in that size.. i think there are brakes for the 8" wheels though?

I'm seeing some new (bush) stuff only offered on a 10" wheel... hmm (new to me anyway)

Thanks for the information. Currently running ABW 29's but need something more suited to both pavement and off field operations. Also trying to balance this with weight. Thinking the 850x10's might be a good balance given the weight of the 29 Air Hawk's.

Whee, I did build my own wheels and also about 12 more sets for others before ABW started casting the 10" wheel. It was expensive to machine them from billet and Bill Duncan saw the writing on the wall that if he wanted to sell more tires he needed to cast the wheel. I charged 2500.00 for a set back then (2005) and today I would probably have to charge 3000.00

The advantage is I could make them lighter, the wheels I have on my cub weigh 7.5 pounds machined from billet and the cast wheels are around 10 pounds.

A185F wrote:Thanks for the information. Currently running ABW 29's but need something more suited to both pavement and off field operations. Also trying to balance this with weight. Thinking the 850x10's might be a good balance given the weight of the 29 Air Hawk's.

I've been where you are. 8.50x10 - 4 with Alaska Bush Wheel or Gar Aero adapters are an excellent compromise for the soft stuff and pavement. You'll also pick up a bunch of speed when you remove the 29" ABW. Keep plenty of air in them and you won't have any shearing. If I remember right 20#.

Mauleguy wrote:Whee, I did build my own wheels and also about 12 more sets for others before ABW started casting the 10" wheel. It was expensive to machine them from billet and Bill Duncan saw the writing on the wall that if he wanted to sell more tires he needed to cast the wheel. I charged 2500.00 for a set back then (2005) and today I would probably have to charge 3000.00

The advantage is I could make them lighter, the wheels I have on my cub weigh 7.5 pounds machined from billet and the cast wheels are around 10 pounds.

Awesome. Thanks Mauleguy.

Battson wrote:

whee wrote:Thanks for sharing the backstory Mauleguy.

Since your a machinist and have built your own wheels I'm curious; can you ballpark what it would cost to have a set of 10" wheels with bead lockers machined? I've been thinking about putting together some drawings of such a wheel and taking it to my local machinist. Based on past dealings I think I could get a set made for close to the same as a set of 10" wheels from ABI.

I think a set of one piece 10" bead locker wheels could work great to run those desser 31s tubeless. They'd also work with 29" Airhawks.

What do you mean by "with bead lockers machined", Whee? I would have just modified an existing wheel with a drill...

Or are you thinking of machining in space for an o-ring to seal the two halves so you can run tubeless? I looked into that, but you need purpose built wheels with enough meat left at the joint for the o-ring to fit into.
The other option I thought of was an RTV or paper gasket, but that's not solid design...

Yeah...I worded that very poorly. I'm talking about a wheel that is one piece with a bead locker. If I had a set of 10" wheels I could modify them to add bead lockers but since I don't why not have a set of wheels made. A local machinist I've deal with on some jet boat stuff is about $60/hr. Based on my perceived complexity of a wheel vs the past projects I ballparked 10hrs per wheel. $500/wheel for material (10" diameter 12" long extrusion). $60/hr x 10hr + $500 = $1100/wheel; pretty much the same cost as a 10" ABI wheel but my estimate could, and likely is, way off.

Tire install would be the same as shown in this video:

whee wrote:

Mauleguy wrote:Whee, I did build my own wheels and also about 12 more sets for others before ABW started casting the 10" wheel. It was expensive to machine them from billet and Bill Duncan saw the writing on the wall that if he wanted to sell more tires he needed to cast the wheel. I charged 2500.00 for a set back then (2005) and today I would probably have to charge 3000.00

The advantage is I could make them lighter, the wheels I have on my cub weigh 7.5 pounds machined from billet and the cast wheels are around 10 pounds.

Awesome. Thanks Mauleguy.

Battson wrote:

whee wrote:Thanks for sharing the backstory Mauleguy.

Since your a machinist and have built your own wheels I'm curious; can you ballpark what it would cost to have a set of 10" wheels with bead lockers machined? I've been thinking about putting together some drawings of such a wheel and taking it to my local machinist. Based on past dealings I think I could get a set made for close to the same as a set of 10" wheels from ABI.

I think a set of one piece 10" bead locker wheels could work great to run those desser 31s tubeless. They'd also work with 29" Airhawks.

What do you mean by "with bead lockers machined", Whee? I would have just modified an existing wheel with a drill...

Or are you thinking of machining in space for an o-ring to seal the two halves so you can run tubeless? I looked into that, but you need purpose built wheels with enough meat left at the joint for the o-ring to fit into.
The other option I thought of was an RTV or paper gasket, but that's not solid design...

Yeah...I worded that very poorly. I'm talking about a wheel that is one piece with a bead locker. If I had a set of 10" wheels I could modify them to add bead lockers but since I don't why not have a set of wheels made. A local machinist I've deal with on some jet boat stuff is about $60/hr. Based on my perceived complexity of a wheel vs the past projects I ballparked 10hrs per wheel. $500/wheel for material (10" diameter 12" long extrusion). $60/hr x 10hr + $500 = $1100/wheel; pretty much the same cost as a 10" ABI wheel but my estimate could, and likely is, way off.

Tire install would be the same as shown in this video:

I think the Bead Locks are unnecessary for aircraft, you could just put screws in the stock wheel bead. Or glue the tire to the rim. Before the ABWs came out a lot of guys here in AK would screw 29in Airhawks to GarAero adapters. There are still a few planes up here with aluminum car wheels with Hoosier racing slicks.

If any of you all decide the 8.5 X 10 tire is the better option for you, send me a PM as I have a set I need to get rid of. Ran for one summer before switching to the 29 inch tires. $399 OBO. The 8.5 X 10 is definitely a great compromise between diameter footprint and weight. Where it lost out for me is the smaller footprint compared to the 29 inch. The 29 allowed me to go more on the "high beaches" with loose, soft sand whereas I tended to sink with a full load on the 8.5's. That's not to say I didn't have some moments with 29s, they just gave more of a margin before the pucker factor increased. I think in some previous post I posted the weights of the different tire and wheel options. If you look in the Cessna 180 file of my photos, there are some pictures showing comparison sizes of the tires.

I have definitely experienced some slippage. I have run the 29s as low as 10 pounds pressure and the 8.5 X tens as low as 15. Luckily, when it has occurred, it has only been a small amount and I have been able to reposition the tire and tube to avoid subsequent valve stem shearage on the next stop. I suspect a lot of people get some tire slippage on the wheel but don't have the tire or wheel marked clearly such that they would notice it.


Matt

2014 on my way to Idaho. Loaded to damn near gross (minus 12 gal of fuel). I didn't check air pressure in the tires before i left. First landing was on a concrete runway in Indiana. The wheel "chirp" was more of a low screech. I knew at that moment i had spun the tire on the rim.

26" Goodyears on 6" wheel. 8 psi i was guessing. Worked fine lightly loaded. Not so much with a load.

I marked them when we mounted them up.
You can see the angle of the valve stem.







Got lucky and just let some air out and spun it back around.

Quote from above: "Yeah...I worded that very poorly. I'm talking about a wheel that is one piece with a bead locker. If I had a set of 10" wheels I could modify them to add bead lockers but since I don't why not have a set of wheels made. A local machinist I've deal with on some jet boat stuff is about $60/hr. Based on my perceived complexity of a wheel vs the past projects I ballparked 10hrs per wheel. $500/wheel for material (10" diameter 12" long extrusion). $60/hr x 10hr + $500 = $1100/wheel; pretty much the same cost as a 10" ABI wheel but my estimate could, and likely is, way off."


I can tell you from my own experience that your estimate is way off. The materials to do a set with 12" billet 6060-t6, bearing, dust seals, washers, bolts for the wheels were around 850.00 if my memory serves. The labor was well over your 10 hours because I was charging that same rate in 2005-2006 (60 per hr.) when I was building the wheels and I was just making shop rate. You can figure out the hours by subtracting the cost of materials.

Crzyivan13 wrote:2014 on my way to Idaho. Loaded to damn near gross (minus 12 gal of fuel). I didn't check air pressure in the tires before i left. First landing was on a concrete runway in Indiana. The wheel "chirp" was more of a low screech. I knew at that moment i had spun the tire on the rim.

26" Goodyears on 6" wheel. 8 psi i was guessing. Worked fine lightly loaded. Not so much with a load.

I marked them when we mounted them up.
You can see the angle of the valve stem.







Got lucky and just let some air out and spun it back around.

This is a really good tire, but seem more slippery on the bead than others at low pressure for whatever reason. I've slipped them before at 12 PSI. If you run them around 18-20 psi, they work pretty well, but don't absorb ground loads like Bushwheels. 6 inch wheels with 31 in Bushwheels is about the best setup for most rough service operations.