Ok guys I am afraid I might sound like an idiot but here goes. As the name suggests I am a fairly low time pilot. My question is this....

I was always taught once the runway is made to chop the power, look ahead, and when the runway started to flatten out start the flare. When I do this I seem to flare at the last second and I really have to wrench the yoke back to ough tarrest the decent...in effect I seem to really 'drop it in'. Well I went out yesterday and thought I might try to flare a touch higher. Well I really dropped the a/c in then. I would flare at what I thought was the right height, the stall horn would go off and I would drop the a/c in from 4-5?? feet not enough to bounce but almost (Thank God 172s are tough!!)

What visual cues and such do you use on final to know when you should flare the a/c? I would like to get to the point I can get the stall horn to go off and touch down shortly after that. Yesterday's landings were some of the worse I have ever done!! Granted there was a stiff x-wind and I was trying to keep the a/c tracking straight but still no excuses....Any insight would be greatly appreciated....

Thanks Guys.

Well I flare jsut beore I splatter. But I do it graddually. When I was first trying to get a good landins, a wise CFI (ex carrier pilot) told me to just sloww way down when about a food agl and just try to keep the plane off the ground with no jerky motion and the plane would smoothly land itself.

That worked good for me. Still do it that way.

Tim

I like to sit at the approach end of a busy GA airport and watch landings. You can learn a lot just by observing. Practice slow flight at a safe alt until you are comfortable climbing, descending, and turning at 1.3 to 1.5vso with and without flaps. Also practice flying down the entire length of the runway as close and as slow as possible to the ground without actually touching the ground. Remember that power controls altitude and pitch controls airspeed. Fly a tight pattern at about 700agl if you can and keep the speed below 80-mph on down wind. Always keep you patterns close enough that if the engine quits you can make the runway. This should help your landings. Then start to work on your spot landings.

Jason

Well, the quick answer on knowing when to flare comes from experience.

To take a shot on trying to tackle your question is to give you an excerise to practice on.

Set up your final approach low and on the power aka "dragging it in" or "on the back side of the power curve". As you get close to the runway you are going to be flying at a lower attitude angle (all red lights on the VASI). Now when you get over the runway and are 10-20' high cut the power and round out to a flare that keeps you just <3' over the runway and let the speed bleed off to a greased landing.

As you build this landing flare experience you can increase the angle on final until you can use full flap-engine at idle going straight at the earth and flare at the last second greased landings.

And as always fly safely, this excerise might require a CFI or knowledgable pilot in the right seat. I have found that practicing advanced flying skills is best done in Flight Simulator before doing them in real life.

Todd Giencke

Greenhorn, you are not alone! Pilots from the Wright brothers onward have had the worst experiences learning to flare!

The problem is that there are so many variables and stuff happens very fast. One suggestion that may help is to try and standardize your approach profile. If you are going to do power off full flap flares then find the right airspeed and nail it. You will develop the timing for that type of flare. If you want to try power on approaches then find the right airspeed and descent rate and power setting and nail that. The timing for a flare from that type of approach will be different, somewhat slower and with less of an attitude change. Pick one and learn it well before changing to another.

As far as visual cues, we probably all have been taught to look at the far end of the runway, but what are we really looking for? I think that eventually we learn at exactly what eye height the mains are going to touch, and complete the flare just before our eyes get down to that height. If you are looking 100 feet up the runway you won't get as good a sense of what height your eyes are at as if you look 3000 feet away. It does help that in our little planes the eye height is about the same as if you were standing up, something most of us have plenty of experience at.

If you feel like you are several steps up a ladder and the plane is about to stall, add some power NOW! Go around if necessary or if the runway is long enough just reduce power slowly and hold the attitude, Cessna's will let you get away with that, as long as you only go back up to ten feet or less.

One technique I used to use for students having problems knowing how high they were in the flare was to go find a REALLY long runway like 10,000 feet or so, and just fly down the runway in slow flight over and over, just allowing the plane to touch, adding a little power to climb back to 5 or 10 feet, reducing it a little to touch again, etc. Go-around before the end of the runway! This practice is also excellent for learning smooth control at slow airspeeds and holding the centerline. Pick a day with NO WIND and little traffic.

It's hard enough learning this stuff in the ten seconds out of each landing available for forming a mental picture of height vs attitude vs airpeed vs descent rate without adding any turbulence or crosswind.

Also, try to fly the same airplane every time, even two similar 172's will have slightly different characteristics in the flare.

As far as timing of the flare, the hardest flare to time is one with full flap, idle power, and a high descent rate. (e.g. power to idle on base) the easiest flare to time is when there IS no flare, that is when the airspeed and descent rate are such that the aircraft is already in the landing attitude and the descent rate is so low that you can just sit there until it hits. (That's about 100 fpm) That's called dragging it in under power, and is rightly discouraged in all but a few special situations such as a glassy water landing.

There are approximately 1 gazillion possible permutations between these two extremes and you need to pick one that you are comfortable with and do it the same way a thousand times. Well OK, a hundred will do.

If your approach is not at exactly the same angle and airspeed every time, the flare will also have to change, so concentrate on that too, again in perfectly calm conditions.

Go find an instructor who knows how to teach landings!


Practice, Practice, Practice...

Regards,

Rocky

I agree with every single thing that RockyTFS said. 3 things in particular.

1. Long runway/slow flight practice: This really helps with your perspective in figuring out where the ground is. The second step is to do this same thing on a narrow runway(since long runways are usually wide too) and learn how to adjust your cues.

2. Find an instructor who can add insight and keep you out of trouble while practicing the above: Usually, but not always, the older the instructor the better.

3. Practice, practice, practice: All of us have to. If you could do a perfect landing every time, it wouldn't be any fun.

Enjoy,

Matt

Rocky, I pmed you.

Dane

As a new low timer myself I cant say I remember well "being there and bouncing that". So just for my 2 cents worth: It sounds like you may be cutting the power a little to soon.
The way I learned, there are three phases to the landing . The approach, the round out, and the flair to touch down. You shouldn't even be thinking of the flair until your a foot or so off the runway. You start the round out about 20-30 foot off the runway and let the plane settle in ground effect a foot or so off and just fly along until your happy with the way things look and feel. Then ease the power out and when you feel the plane start to settle start adding back pressure on the yoke (flair) until touch down. If you reach the stops before touching down add a little power and let it settle in. If you got enough runway to play with don't be in a hurry to get it on the ground. If you can concentrate on each phase one at a time then your more likely to pick up on the one thing your looking for. Pretty soon it will just click and the next thing you'll know your flying each phase as one smooth motion to touch down.
Another thing. It was mentioned above that the closer you focus on the runway the higher you will round out/flair. True, but the one thing I still have trouble with is focusing to close while landing with a cross wind. Its a lot easier to align the airplane with the runway by looking close in but then you flair to high and drop it in. Even though I know I tend to do this and tell myself not to, I still have trouble forcing myself to focus long with a cross wind. So maybe that could be a factor with you as well?
Happy flying............

It is difficult to describe WHEN to start the flare in a text format.

However, maybe try this to solidify the "sight picture" in your head: On a long runway, initiate a soft field take off (tricycle gear technique): full aft stick at all times until the nose wheel pops off under application of power for the takeoff roll. Then just release enough back pressure to avoid a tail strike. Reduce power a bit so as to roll down the runway in a nose-high attitude and concentrate on the sight picture. This is about what you want when you touch down... Note... Your eye focal point will most likely need to be up above the horizon - certainly not on the runway in front of you or even ON the horizon - but ABOVE it.

Now as you get close to the runway on final approach, start your flare and transition your eye-focus up ABOVE the horizon (about 2-3 inches worth of windshield) and KEEP it there. Don't look down. Let your periphery take in the subtle changes and make your corrections in the flare based on those. Your periphery catches those changes (both crosswind drift and sink) and the brain processes them MUCH faster than when they are received from the eye's focal point... kindof a leftover instinct from the caveman days I suppose.

If you flare a bit high when trying this technique for the first time, just add a bit of power to arrest the descent and smooth out the touchdown. If you keep those eyes above the horizon, your periphery will catch that impending sinker even before your kinesthetic senses do! Then, next time around the pattern, delay your flare a little longer... i.e. keep that aim-point (about 200' short of your desired touchdown point) square in the windshield just a little bit longer.

This technique for improving landings has worked very well for me personally, and I have seen marked improvement in my students (whether it's a taildragger, a tricycle gear, or an airliner) when they try it several times in a row and stick with it. If you're not used to using your periphery in the flare, then it will be difficult at first. Trust me though, if you look down at the runway, that is when the landing will get butchered! Whenever I plant one on, I can immediately recall the second I got lazy and glanced down at the runway - and that is when everything went awry. The only time I ever ground-looped the 170 (no damage - thank goodness) I can recall the same moment. On that note - especially in a taildragger - it is imperative to keep that focal point above the horizon until you are done taxiing. When things get squirrelly, I am willing to bet that your focus is somewhere else.

M

tgiencke wrote:Set up your final approach low and on the power aka "dragging it in" or "on the back side of the power curve". As you get close to the runway you are going to be flying at a lower attitude angle (all red lights on the VASI). Now when you get over the runway and are 10-20' high cut the power and round out to a flare that keeps you just <3' over the runway and let the speed bleed off to a greased landing.

I'm not a CFI and only have a about 1,000 hrs of backcountry flying experience so take this for what its worth but this does not sound like good advice or at least not complete advice. I thought that when operating on the backside of the power curve increasing the angle of attack increases drag which increases the rate of descent and that the only way to stop the descent is by adding power. When I "drag it in" on the "back side of the power curve" cutting the power causes an immediate landing which is OK when a few inches above the runway but not not something I want to try at 10-20 feet as Todd suggests.

Of course you have to be careful when operatiing below the VASI too. At my airport doing so could result in getting hit by a truck on the road that passes a few feet in front of the runway threshold.

Rob

Whew! Watch out, Greenhorn, what was it somebody said about trying to learn to fly a plane on the Internet!?!

You've got some good advice here and some not so good advice. I''ll bet you are confused now!

I would have to agree with Prepared Pilot, operations on the backside of the power curve are a real no-no for lowtimers.

When I described a no flare landing, I didn't mean you should go out and try one! That is definitely on the backside of the curve!

What all of us are trying to do on every landing is arrest the descent to almost but not quite zero when the airplane is in the landing attitude over our intended touchdown spot. The devil is in the details!

If you are slightly fast and/or your flare (or round-out, I use the terms interchangeably) started slightly late, you will float. You can't touch yet because the aircraft hasn't slowed enough to not hit nose first. No problem here, that's the way most of us land in normal conditions, and as long as you don't climb back up from the one foot level you will make a fine landing, albeit a little longer than really necessary.

If you're slighly slow and/or slightly early starting the flare (or too abrupt with the pitch-up), you will probably get to the landing attitude before you are down to a foot off the runway. This will usually cause a hard landing, although a short burst of power may salvage things at the expense of landing a little longer. When most planes get to the landing attitude they are very close to the stall and speed bleeds off very rapidly, not good if you are still 10 feet up.

The perfect normal landing (not short field) is somewhere between these two.

I repeat: An (older) CFI who really understands landings can get you through this plateau phase.

Rocky

Thanks guys for all of the replies. Please keep them coming. I am going to re-read all of them and find a good CFI to go out and out this to use. I am sure it will all get better with experience. I think like Punkin said I need to go out there and really get that sight picture in my head. Maybe I can get some seat time this weekend. I need to get this down so I can graduate to real airplanes (one with a little wheel on the tail!!!)

Rocky I thought everyone learned to fly by reading the internet....sure saves that hassle and money of getting one of those pesky CFI's

Rob and Rocky are certainly right about the "region of reverse command" (as the Flight Training Handbook so convolutedly puts it), or "back side of the power curve". Be careful there! It is a technique to be explored AFTER getting comfortable with normal short/soft field landings. Good soft field landing technique actually starts to utilize the "back side of the curve" while in the flare just a few inches above the surface.

One other thing that should be emphasized is airspeed control. Know your short field approach speed and make sure you can successfully get the airplane stabilized at that speed on final between 3-500 feet to go. Power fluctuations should be minimal, and really only necessary when faced with changing winds/updrafts/downdrafts/etc. You should know the power setting that holds this speed with full flaps extended (in calm air of course). Practice the final approach configuration at a safe altitude and find the power setting if you don't already know it. Make sure the airplane is trimmed properly and you're not fighting it just to maintain the speed. Then when it's time to flare, reduce the power SMOOTHLY to idle and add aft stick to counteract the resulting sink. Transition your focus up above the horizon (as mentioned in my previous post), find your nose-high sight picture and just hold it off...

Good luck and have fun!

Matt

PS: A CFI doesn't necessarily have to be "older" to be good... Just experienced and able to convey his/her ideas clearly!

PPS: How does the saying go? "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving poor judgement."

Greehorn wrote:Rocky I thought everyone learned to fly by reading the internet....sure saves that hassle and money of getting one of those pesky CFI's

Well, I learned to fly long before the Internet, but I sure as hell have learned a LOT more about flying in the last ten years on the Internet!

Rocky

Lots of good replies.

One thing I'd like to add is that I usually cut the power at "hangar height" (20-30'ish feet off the deck?) at which point if you make no pitch adjustment, your sink rate will increase with the loss of power. Instead, I start applying back pressure the instant that I cut the power to try to maintain the same decent angle that I had on my stabilized approach prior to cutting the power. This back pressure is what's gonna bleed off the airspeed from approach speed to touchdown speed.

Then when I get closer and closer to the deck (this is where judgement and experience comes in), I accelerate the back pressure as I begin the actual roundout. Absolutely, the stall horn should be blaring on every flare. If not, you are too fast. I daresay that many/most pilots that I see have approach/touchdown speeds that are at least a few kts/mph too hot.

There are as many ways to land as there are pilots (well, almost) so what works for one pilot may not for another. The nuances of landing technique often boil down to personal preference, but the fundamentals are always the same.

Stall horn, what hell is that?

Indeed there is some good and some even better points here.
I will add one that some will totally disagree with but here goes. You may be too focused, relax and when you think your 30-40 feet off the ground take a quick glance out your window.
You may find this will do a couple things for you. When you look back ahead your brain will have a better perspective than it did with that concentrated approach. Make sure your just taking a glance and don't move the stick when you turn your head.
You will be surprised at what a difference this can make at smoothing out those drop ins..

The one thing I have noticed that is interesting is that a lot of people talk about cutting the power just before touchdown. Teaching methods have changed some I guess. In training I was always taught power to idle when abeam the intended point of landing on downwind. I'm not saying that I agree with that, I don't and haven't flown that way in a long time, just interesting that teaching methods have changed. Were any other people taught that way, or was the flight school that I went to nuts?
The one thing I do believe helps a lot is a stabilized approach, if your approach isn't stabilized the flare at the bottom will be different most times because altitudes and airspeeds will be different because you weren't stabilized.

I truly believe in the stabilized approach method. In fact I have come to believe in the set AOA way of doing approachs where in the partern I look at the airspeed gauge twice. First time is on downwind where I slow to the top of the white arc. When I'm in the white arc I lower 10deg of flaps. The extra drag slows the plane and give it a little trim. I time the next two notches of flaps with how high I am. On final I have full flaps and trim the plane for a set approach speed taking in account density altitude, wind, and weight. With the trim (AOA) set I use the throttle to adjust for height. Now I'm not dragging it in it is more like 1500RPM or less.

The great thing about this technique is the nose is already trimmed high and there isn't much of a flare to do. I usually grease the landings this way.

The fun part is with a strong cross wind. I always slip my approaches in a cross wind which needs a little less AOA because of the increased drag. But still having a stabilized approach is a must.

My Musketeer has a demonstrated cross wind of 13 knots. I can land in 15 gusting to 30 knot cross winds by standing on the rudder and adjusting the bank. But it is still very important to have a stabilized approach even if the wind is beating you to death.

I have only 300hr in 3 years of flying but using this technique I have only had one go-around and never have canceled because of wind.

-Hope this helps.

-Todd Geincke

2',,, no higher, no lower, I said no higher and no lower, no higher, no lower and on and on. That is what you'll hear from a very good tail dragger CFI I know. If you try to maintain that 2' until touch down, you'll usually have a pretty decent 3 pointer.

Another helpfull drill.
Stand at the end of a straight stretch of road or street or better yet runway. Put your hand up in your line of sight and block your vision of the end of that road/street/runway. Visualize what the end of the road/street/runway looks like through your hand. You can move your hand out of the way briefly but you want to be able to have xray vision right through your hand and have a clear picture of the end of the road/street/runway in your minds eye. Now at the same time, become aware of your peripheral vision. Without shifting your eyes from the back of your hand, become aware of what all you can see out of the "corner of your eye". Believe me, when your in the back seat of a Stearman or either seat on a C-195 or one of the war birds with a big ol' radial, that's all ya' got, is the image of the runway, in your minds eye and your peripheral vision. Don't be bouncing around or careening your head to try and get a better look or you'll lose all your angles and your image. This holds true during any landing "flare". (Some instructers don't even like the term flare as it almost sounds like you'll be gaining altitude which better not be the case or you will really drop one in)

It's like trying to describe the perfect golf swing...