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Backcountry Pilot • 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

Have problems with your aircraft? Maybe just questions about how best to tune or adjust something? Regs or maintenance? Need to know the best way to do something?
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185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

I was clicking around looking for something completely unrelated and stumbled on these, also started reading up on the German dude who started this tech

Is this a thing for post 1974 Cessna 185s, do our factory a185f tips already have the designed, and/or is this an upgrade?



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https://www.knots2u.net/cessna-hoerner- ... two-metco/



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“ This is the story of an accomplished wartime aerodynamicist from Germany, a former Douglas Aircraft aeronautical engineer and self-professed "Character" from California, an invisible corkscrew, and a revolutionary wingtip.
As an aerodynamicist for Germany's Fiesler Corporation, Dr. Sighard Hoerner, Ph.D., worked on the Fiesler Storch (Stork), a short takeoff and landing (STOL) reconnaissance and liaison aircraft.

During the Second World War, Hoerner worked as head of design aerodynamics for Junkers and later for Messerschmitt. After the war, he was invited to come to the United States to work on aerodynamic research at Wright Field, in Dayton, Ohio.

There, while working on new concepts for high performance for Navy fighters, Hoerner designed the wingtip that bears his name. He was one of the first aerodynamicists to acknowledge the existence of the wingtip vortex, the corkscrew-shaped wake that forms on a wing's outboard edge, and the Hoerner wing tip was specifically designed to minimize the effects of wingtip vortices on the lift, drag, stability, and control.

In 1953, Tom Hebert quit work as an aeronautical engineer for Douglas and started his own company at Fullerton Municipal Airport, in California. Friends described Hebert as "a genius." He described himself as "a character." His new company, Met-Co-Aire, seems to have reflected both portrayals. His company was the first to offer "Metalizing" of Stinson and Cessna wings, stripping off the fabric covering and replacing it with aluminum. Hebert's tricycle gear conversion for the Cessna 170 was copied by Cessna and gave birth to the Cessna 172. And Hebert was the first to hang 180-hp Lycoming's on the popular but under-powered Piper Apache.

Hebert decided that Hoerner's efficient, high-performance wingtip design should also work on civilian light planes. His only major change to the Hoerner wing tip was in materials. At Wright Field, Hoerner's design was rendered in metal; Hebert chose high-quality resin-based fiberglass.

GAINING MOMENTUM

Met-Co-Aire's Hoerner wing tip did not catch on right away. The Hoerner design first appeared on Piper factory-built aircraft in 1974, but av-gas was cheap and customers seeking better performance could ignore fuel efficiency. Still, word got around. Hebert and Met-Co-Aire were building a solid reputation for producing high-quality, high-performance fiberglass wingtips and replacement parts at affordable prices. Hebert passed away in 1976, and Ron Van Vliet took over at Met-Co-Aire, assuming leadership of a "small but very dedicated" group of craftsmen.

Then fuel prices went ballistic. Suddenly, fuel consumption was an important factor in aircraft performance. At about the same time, the growing popularity of homebuilt and Experimental began raising the flying public's interest in modifying factory-built airframes. Met-Co-Aire re-emerged as a leader in designing and producing high-performance wingtips, tip tanks, and fiberglass replacement parts.

DO THEY PERFORM?

Met-Co-Aire says that its Hoerner wingtips "will add to the performance of your aircraft." They say the Hoerner tips will increase aircraft range by 1 to 2 percent, increase the rate of climb by 60 fpm, boost cruising speed by 3 to 5 mph, cut takeoff distance by 15 to 20 percent, reduce stall speed by 4 to 5 mph, and improve overall aircraft stability.

Van Vliet says the company's performance claims are a bit conservative. "We didn't hire a hotshot test pilot to stand an airplane on its tail and produce inflated performance claims for us," he said. "We believe in the empirical evidence [from customers].

Still, customers can be subjective. When Al Hayes came to Met-Co-Aire for a set of wingtips, back in 1985, Van Vliet saw an opportunity. Hayes is an engineer with a Ph.D. from MIT, and his Cherokee 180 had just been nearly outrun by a PA-28-160 equipped with Hoerner wingtips. Hayes agreed to run a systematic before-and-after evaluation, with his buddy's -160 as a control. After installing the Met-Co-Aire wingtips, Hayes reported a shorter takeoff roll, a lower stall speed (by about 5 mph IAS), and more stability in moderate turbulence and rolls during level flight. He admitted, however, that these findings were subjective.

The real test came in a side-by-side comparison of cruise speeds between Hayes' aircraft and the -160. Across a wide range of power settings, Hayes found an increase of about 4 percent in cruising speed, after the Met-Co-Aire wingtips were installed. In the 120-130 mph IAS range, he reported an increase of 4 to 5 knots.

Comanche owners also report dramatic reductions in landing speed and stall speed. One owner reported that he had spun Comanches with conventional wingtips but trying to spin his Comanche equipped with Met-Co-Aire's tips produced only a solid stall. The owner added: "Jumping on the rudder only produced a slow roll and a nose drop." Van Vliet says about 70 percent of the Piper Comanches currently flying carry Met-Co-Aire's Hoerner wingtips.

PIPERS, CESSNAS, AND BONANZAS

Met-Co-Aire offers Hoerner-design wingtips to replace the original tips on Beech Bonanzas (35 through P) and a wide range of Piper and Cessna aircraft. They supply wingtips for pre-1974 Cessna's, including the 140A, 150, 170B, 172, 175, 180, 182, 185, and 210.

Hoerner-design high-performance wingtips are available from Met-Co-Aire for Piper Cherokees (140 through 200), Comanche (singles and twins), Apache, and Aztec. Also for Cherokees, Met-Co-Aire has fiberglass stabilator tips, dorsal fins, tail cones, and fixed-gear fairings to replace the original plastic parts.

Piper Aircraft used the Hoerner-design wing tip as standard equipment on its taper-wing Cherokees (151 through 236).

BIG BANG FOR THE BUCK

Someone once said that you can't use "Cherokee" and "fast" in the same sentence without sounding sarcastic. A lot of folks have been proving that wrong and creating some pretty hot Cherokees in the process. According to their customers, Met-Co-Aire's Hoerner wingtips offer a lot of "bang for the buck" in boosting the performance of Cherokees, as well as Comanches, Apaches, and Aztecs, along with Beech Bonanzas, and a whole bunch of Cessnas.

Note: Met-Co Aire is now owned by Texas Aeroplastics and Knots2u.

David Sakrison, Ripon, WI, is a former Editor of Cessna Owner Magazine and Pipers Magazine. He is a private pilot and a regular contributor to aviation magazines in the United States and Great Britain.”
Last edited by NineThreeKilo on Sat Aug 03, 2024 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

I know a guy who claims someone snuck into his hangar and installed Hoerner wing tips on his Husky. He claims no change in stall speed, minimal increase in cruise speed, but a significant improvement in handling near and in the stall, making slow, high AoA approaches easier to fly.

So I’ve heard.
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

Thanks for the read that's an interesting article. I had always associated the name Hoerner with those big droopy style wing tips. I didn't realize he had fashioned so many different versions for various aircraft types.
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

Mapleflt wrote:Thanks for the read that's an interesting article. I had always associated the name Hoerner with those big droopy style wing tips. I didn't realize he had fashioned so many different versions for various aircraft types.


Actually the droopy ones are Madras tips, a guy named Ace Deemers designed them.

https://www.madraspioneer.com/news/ace- ... 1c877.html
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

hotrod180 wrote:
Mapleflt wrote:Thanks for the read that's an interesting article. I had always associated the name Hoerner with those big droopy style wing tips. I didn't realize he had fashioned so many different versions for various aircraft types.


Actually the droopy ones are Madras tips, a guy named Ace Deemers designed them.

https://www.madraspioneer.com/news/ace- ... 1c877.html


Thanks for the clarification, clearly I need to brush up on my wing tips. :?
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

They look slick and would allow an easier upgrade to LED lights. Can they be made to work with Sportsman cuff?
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

I once asked an old timey mechanic in Anchorage about wing tips on a Super Cub. His response: "On these type airplanes, a wing tip is simply a way to end a wing. Make yourself happy."

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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

hotrod180 wrote:
Mapleflt wrote:Thanks for the read that's an interesting article. I had always associated the name Hoerner with those big droopy style wing tips. I didn't realize he had fashioned so many different versions for various aircraft types.


Actually the droopy ones are Madras tips, a guy named Ace Deemers designed them.

https://www.madraspioneer.com/news/ace- ... 1c877.html


There was an article shared on BCP, years ago, some old photocopy from the 1970s I think. It was an interview with the guys who worked on the Skywagon at Cessna IIRC.

Anyway, the gist was, the wingtips on the Skywagon were mostly designed to look good and sell airplanes through ramp appeal. They also did a bunch of testing and determined there was minimal difference between drooped wingtips and hoerner wingtips - hence the marketing won the argument.

It basically had the same underlying message as MTV espouses above, either design is equally suitable. Just don't use blanking plates like some microlights do, that's not a good way to end a wing which goes >120 kts.
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

It sure would be cool if someone did some good tests with a skywagon or something similar

If I was going to tool up spend all the time and money to make wingtips to sell for a certified plane, I’d for sure build some numbers I could put into a table to sell my product
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

Battson wrote:Just don't use blanking plates like some microlights do, that's not a good way to end a wing
There is a 180 in a photo on the skywagon club website has that.
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

hotrod180 wrote:Actually the droopy ones are Madras tips, a guy named Ace Deemers designed them.

https://www.madraspioneer.com/news/ace- ... 1c877.html


The very first safety [de-]mod I performed on my then-new-to-me C180 was remove the Madras tips the plane came with. Flying with Madras tips must be how a horse with blinders feels, because I found myself having to markedly “lift a wing tip” in order to see outward enuf to feel safe. I reckon they did renew my proficiency with Dutch rolls. Installed circa 1967 C172 non-Hoerner tips and gained increased outward visibility on-ground & in-flight, with no detectable (by me) performance loss. YMMV.
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

C180_guy wrote:
Battson wrote:Just don't use blanking plates like some microlights do, that's not a good way to end a wing
There is a 180 in a photo on the skywagon club website has that.



There are 2 "Wheat Rockets" with homemade flat tips. Bo tested them by putting them on one side each and felt yaw toward the droop tip at high speed. N725 cruises 165 kt and that 180 cruises 175 kt with a Victor 555.
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Re: 185 Hoerner Wing Tips?

Isn't that the Nick Mardis 180 - the guy that has a tailwheel wheel pant. Could be all this stuff is on the club site, but I don't facebook.
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