Moto-

Your killing me with these questions!! Go fly the plane. What works best in what situation???

Like Gump says they put flaps on those planes for a reason. 40 degrees makes it soft and sweet. Never had a problem with a go around with 40 deployed. It just takes a bit more forward pressure. Throw a crosswind in and maybe take out a bit of flaps. 182, new, old 180, 185 same goes for the 206,...shit man, flaps do wonders

Yes I know I dont have to respond and I can mind my own business but given that this thread keeps poping up on my iphone I can hardly take it anymore. This is like the who on first whats on second question...

Geeeez!!!

qmdv wrote:

Nosedragger wrote:

AKclimber wrote:I've noticed some mention too high of a nose attitude when landing with full flaps.
Are you guys dragging it in?
When I want to land my 170B short (actually most of my landings are this way, except with x-wind), I stabilize on final with power off (or 1000 rpm or so to get to the glide slope) and full flaps trimmed for 60 mph or less (depending on GW). The plane settles on a 500 fpm steep descent and the nose stays pretty level with the horizon.
When close to the ground I round out and flare and the plane does a full stall landing at 3 point attitude at about 40 mph or less.
Roll out is about five hundred feet or less (sea level) with minimum braking.

I think the 182's and 206's are so heavy the fowler flaps just squirt a lot of air on top of the stabilizer. It's actually a good thing if you need to plunk down like a parachuter but I prefer less flap, flatter transition, and gentle chirp where I have plenty of runway. The chord line follows your flap settings, right? Seems like it would have to thus narrowing the gap between it and your stall speed angle of attack with every notch of flap.

Do you meen the 182's from 1962 and later. My 182B is as light as a feather on the controles, full flaps and trimmed way back.
Tim

Mine's a 66 j model. Feels like a 206. I fly a TRG182 sometimes that's totally different.

andy wrote:Full flaps (48 degrees), 55 mph final approach speed and light braking before touchdown for the shortest (3-pointer) landing in my Maule MX-7-180.

Can I watch your next landing, if you use light braking before touchdown?

Sure. Done it many times. Need to keep the yoke well back. The Maule has a heavy tail and doesn't try to come back off the ground unless you brake too hard. I've seen the Valdez folks do it with a wheel landing, but I don't want to take the risk of a nose-over.

Not so sure I'd want to use any braking before touchdown--after maybe so, but not before.

Cary

using light braking before touchdown is a normal and often used off airport landing technique. Pick up any of the back country flying books and they will explain how to do it. Go play with it, you may find it to be useful.

Cary wrote:Not so sure I'd want to use any braking before touchdown--after maybe so, but not before.

Cary

I've done it many times, even on pavement if I'm trying to make the first turn off and beat someone to the fuel pumps It's not really that big of a deal, just use light pressure. As soon as you get the tires on the ground you can get on the brakes harder if you want and use the elevator to keep the tail down.

I thought that braking while still in the air only worked in the cartoons. Better get my brakes checked because they seem really ineffective while I'll still flying.

Can't find it anywhere in my 1975 version of Imeson's "Mountain Flying", and one of the "no-nos" that I emphasized to students many long years ago was to make sure that their feet were not on the brakes at touchdown. But it's your tires, your airplane, and you can do it if you want to--just don't expect to do it if you're ever flying mine!

Cary

F.E. Potts' "Guide to Bush Flying" page 137: "Normal STOL landings are made using a careful approach as described in the chapter on approaches, then touching down at minimum airspeed using full flaps with the brakes partially on. As soon as the airplane is on the ground, the flaps are retracted and maximum braking is applied. This will require full up-elevator (stick back) to keep the tail down; if the tail starts to rise because of soft terrain or other conditions, brake pressure will have to be relaxed to the point where the tail will stay down."

Interesting technique! Never thought about it but it makes sense. Time to go play with it and see how it works!

Moto-

Your killing me with these questions!! Go fly the plane. What works best in what situation???

andy wrote:F.E. Potts' "Guide to Bush Flying" page 137: "Normal STOL landings are made using a careful approach as described in the chapter on approaches, then touching down at minimum airspeed using full flaps with the brakes partially on. As soon as the airplane is on the ground, the flaps are retracted and maximum braking is applied. This will require full up-elevator (stick back) to keep the tail down; if the tail starts to rise because of soft terrain or other conditions, brake pressure will have to be relaxed to the point where the tail will stay down."

I personally would agree with this technique all the way to the part that talks about keeping the tail down. You can keep the tail in the air as you feather your brakes all the way to the stopping point and still land very very short. I see guys all the time 3 point or put there tail down way to soon and come out with flat tires, broken stingers, etc ( in rough terrain of course). The entire technique I beleive summerizes a good STOL landing expect the low tail IMO.

Funny, but I had this same discussion with the DPE durring my commercial ride. He wanted the tail down. Thats ok on pavement or smooth grass but you get the same results (with some practice) with the tail up and you can see not to mention the other hazzards your avoiding as I mentioned above. For that matter, watch the heavy touring guys in Valdez wheel all of the landings on pavement. It could come down to the plane as well. A good number of the cub guys 3 point it for short. After watching Coyotee Ugly fly and land a lot, he spent most of the time wheeling it in. Obviously all is a matter of prefrence. Heck I hear all the time about retracting flaps once on the ground as well. I learned to keep the flaps down to slow you down. If you land and then retract them drag decreases and the airspeed can pick up due to clean air flow. I beleive in keeping the flaps down and apply your brakes with the tail up so I can see. Again just my own opinion...Everyone is different. Practice pracitce practice. What works for you...

AKT

I agree with you Kevin and use that technique as well. Tail low landing (NOT 3 pt) then roll it up on the mains for max braking (more weight on the mains too).

Cary wrote:Can't find it anywhere in my 1975 version of Imeson's "Mountain Flying." But it's your tires, your airplane, and you can do it if you want to.

Lots of guys out there as good or better than Imeson working airplanes and passing on their knowledge. Fred Potts liked to toot his own horn, but he knew his shit.

The technique is a very good one, fairly easy to master, and you don't hurt tires or airplane. In fact it makes life easier on your airplane by slowing you down quicker on the rough stuff. It is not a set of size 12's planted firmly on the pedals, oblivious to the screeching noise and smoke coming from the tires as the nose goes over. It's gentle, and depends mostly on your butt telling you how your weight is shifting fore and aft.

Me... I like tail low wheel landings on the real rough stuff, and hold the tail off till I've stopped.

Gump

aktahoe1 wrote: Heck I hear all the time about retracting flaps once on the ground as well. I learned to keep the flaps down to slow you down. If you land and then retract them drag decreases and the airspeed can pick up due to clean air flow.

Kevin, try dumping flaps when you're working in a heavy crosswind. Works good at killing lift, and transferring all the weight to the wheels. Then you're driving instead of flying.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:

aktahoe1 wrote: Heck I hear all the time about retracting flaps once on the ground as well. I learned to keep the flaps down to slow you down. If you land and then retract them drag decreases and the airspeed can pick up due to clean air flow.

Kevin, try dumping flaps when you're working in a heavy crosswind. Works good at killing lift, and transferring all the weight to the wheels. Then you're driving instead of flying.

Gump

Yepper...often in a Xwind I may only use 20 for landing then dump. Sometimes 40, just depends. Configuration for me changes in various scenarios. If its real windy I generally dump them quickly and get the tail on the ground quickly. Again, it just depends. Will be flying over your house in an hour Gump!

We'll be up too. Heading to Smith Dry Lake for a soak in the hot springs.

Gump

All good TECHNIQUES...of course, the situation at hand determines which technique to apply.

Obviously it depends on the surface you are landing on, but I have seen many studs apply the brakes before landing (in preparation for a STOL landing, often unintentionally) only to flat spot the tires as soon as they touch down pavement...makes for a pissed off IP, let alone the Mx bubba who now has to swap them out Of course, no body is recommending this technique on pavement, but if you want to train like you fight, inevitably someone is going to try it.

The two reasons to dump flaps that I'm aware of are to 1) decrease the lift on wing and 2) shift the CG forward over the brakes to maximize their effectiveness. I'd say #1 applies all of the time, but #2 is very aircraft specific. I'm with Kevin on dumping the flaps, I'm not to the point where I can dump 'em quick enough on a STOL landing. (Maybe I need one of them EZ Flap things...) Plus, I'm wheel landing most of the time, so my angle of attack is already reduced, and the full flaps actually add more drag than lift at that point.

aktahoe1 wrote:

andy wrote:F.E. Potts' "Guide to Bush Flying" page 137: "Normal STOL landings are made using a careful approach as described in the chapter on approaches, then touching down at minimum airspeed using full flaps with the brakes partially on. As soon as the airplane is on the ground, the flaps are retracted and maximum braking is applied. This will require full up-elevator (stick back) to keep the tail down; if the tail starts to rise because of soft terrain or other conditions, brake pressure will have to be relaxed to the point where the tail will stay down."

I personally would agree with this technique all the way to the part that talks about keeping the tail down. You can keep the tail in the air as you feather your brakes all the way to the stopping point and still land very very short. I see guys all the time 3 point or put there tail down way to soon and come out with flat tires, broken stingers, etc ( in rough terrain of course). The entire technique I beleive summerizes a good STOL landing expect the low tail IMO.

Funny, but I had this same discussion with the DPE durring my commercial ride. He wanted the tail down. Thats ok on pavement or smooth grass but you get the same results (with some practice) with the tail up and you can see not to mention the other hazzards your avoiding as I mentioned above. For that matter, watch the heavy touring guys in Valdez wheel all of the landings on pavement. It could come down to the plane as well. A good number of the cub guys 3 point it for short. After watching Coyotee Ugly fly and land a lot, he spent most of the time wheeling it in. Obviously all is a matter of prefrence. Heck I hear all the time about retracting flaps once on the ground as well. I learned to keep the flaps down to slow you down. If you land and then retract them drag decreases and the airspeed can pick up due to clean air flow. I beleive in keeping the flaps down and apply your brakes with the tail up so I can see. Again just my own opinion...Everyone is different. Practice pracitce practice. What works for you...

AKT

Actually, what Potts is describing there IS a tail low wheel landing. The point is you KEEP the tail LOW (he says "down", which means low) by using full nose up elevator to counteract the braking effect.

MTV