https://grist.org/regulation/avgas-lead ... -hillview/

“..to address the largest remaining source of airborne lead emissions in the country, a coalition of environmental advocacy organizations joined forces with California’s Santa Clara County on Tuesday to press the Environmental Protection Agency, or EPA, to classify leaded aviation gasoline air pollution as a danger to public health and the environment. An EPA-issued finding on this matter would allow the federal government to propose regulatory standards to address the harm caused by a highly toxic additive in aviation fuel.”

Of course never mind the facts that 100ll is a no factor as far as overall pollution is concerned....but yeah

Hopefully this goes no where, god knows if CA wants to address pollution there’s lots of things to the south that would make a actual difference, but politics say no

This was on NPR news today, I don't think it's coincidence.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/30/10314292 ... ast-stockp

Dale Moul wrote:This was on NPR news today, I don't think it's coincidence.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/30/10314292 ... ast-stockp

Hmmm

“ and the use of leaded gasoline has been linked to lower IQs and higher rates of violent crime.”

I would love to know how they extrapolated that fact

Utah-Jay wrote:

Dale Moul wrote:This was on NPR news today, I don't think it's coincidence.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/30/10314292 ... ast-stockp

Hmmm

“ and the use of leaded gasoline has been linked to lower IQs and higher rates of violent crime.”

I would love to know how they extrapolated that fact

Sounds like projection.

I’d wager the lawfulness and intelligence of the average owner/operator of a GA plane is probably higher than that of the average NPR staff member.



“Yo fo! Tell the homes to fire on their vintage cars and come over to the spot, we’re going to fire up our cubs do a fly by shooting on that rival EAA chapter, mofos took our pancake recipe”



The news has never been that great on aviation, but man...

“If you don’t read the newspaper you’re uninformed, if you do you’re misinformed”

I am in the process of getting my second low compression Pponk built from a 470U. Thought about making it a Texas Skyways 470UTS so I could legally burn AGE 85 ethanol fuel(88% ethanol,11% pentane and 1 % biodiesel). That is the "official" fuel but I'm sure the E85 that I am using in my car and pickup would do just fine. It was $2.10 a gallon the other day. So you say it burns half again more per hour----we are up to a little over $3 if you prorate it. I have 88 gall tanks in the 180K so more than enough endurance. AOPA had an article recently about a guy working on an aluminum car engine in a 172, I think, and one of the fuels it would burn is E85. This pic is from General Aviation News article.

What's next? They're going to tell us to wash our hands when we're sick? Not sneeze on people? Wear respirators when using MEK? Not drink gasoline? Wear seatbelts? Don't let bleach and ammonia mix? Bunch of cotdam snowflake hippie bullshid

Lead and violence:
https://www.nber.org/digest/may08/impac ... dult-crime
https://journals.lww.com/jonmd/Citation ... TAL.9.aspx
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/ ... ed.0050101
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.246 ... 0.66.3.839
https://archive.org/details/biologyviolencef0000denn
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5703470/
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.c ... 019-7025-5

asa wrote:What's next? They're going to tell us to wash our hands when we're sick? Not sneeze on people? Wear respirators when using MEK? Not drink gasoline? Wear seatbelts? Don't let bleach and ammonia mix? Bunch of cotdam snowflake hippie bullshid

Lead and violence:
https://www.nber.org/digest/may08/impac ... dult-crime
https://journals.lww.com/jonmd/Citation ... TAL.9.aspx
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/ ... ed.0050101
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.246 ... 0.66.3.839
https://archive.org/details/biologyviolencef0000denn
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5703470/
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.c ... 019-7025-5

Sometimes it’s hard to get sarcasm in text, you’re not honestly comparing running 100ll in some little Cessna to the above...are you?

180Marty wrote:I am in the process of getting my second low compression Pponk built from a 470U. Thought about making it a Texas Skyways 470UTS so I could legally burn AGE 85 ethanol fuel(88% ethanol,11% pentane and 1 % biodiesel). That is the "official" fuel but I'm sure the E85 that I am using in my car and pickup would do just fine. It was $2.10 a gallon the other day. So you say it burns half again more per hour----we are up to a little over $3 if you prorate it. I have 88 gall tanks in the 180K so more than enough endurance. AOPA had an article recently about a guy working on an aluminum car engine in a 172, I think, and one of the fuels it would burn is E85. This pic is from General Aviation News article.

Wish there was a good fuel option for the big bore fuel injected crowd, shy of putting a corvette engine, being able to burn cheap and plentiful pump gas would be good on many levels.

Left with no reasonable choice, I am putting a 100LL burning Lycoming in my build. I would have preferred a Rotax, but it would not work for W&B

I preferred the Rotax for cheaper fuel and 100+ pounds lighter.

Jay, I know what I'd do in a heart beat if I was you with experimental. Just a few minor changes now when building will give you flexibility. Poet is one of the biggest ethanol producers based at Sioux Falls. I've watched the VanGuard team for years and ethanol is available everywhere except maybe Alaska. I am in three ethanol plants and my share of production is about 250,000 gallons per year.
http://vanguardsquadron.com/Aircraft.aspx

180Marty wrote:Jay, I know what I'd do in a heart beat if I was you with experimental. Just a few minor changes now when building will give you flexibility. Poet is one of the biggest ethanol producers based at Sioux Falls. I've watched the VanGuard team for years and ethanol is available everywhere except maybe Alaska. I am in three ethanol plants and my share of production is about 250,000 gallons per year.
http://vanguardsquadron.com/Aircraft.aspx

LOL, those wings might drag on the brush where I like to land.

At least it has a tailwheel

Utah-Jay wrote:

180Marty wrote:Jay, I know what I'd do in a heart beat if I was you with experimental. Just a few minor changes now when building will give you flexibility. Poet is one of the biggest ethanol producers based at Sioux Falls. I've watched the VanGuard team for years and ethanol is available everywhere except maybe Alaska. I am in three ethanol plants and my share of production is about 250,000 gallons per year.
http://vanguardsquadron.com/Aircraft.aspx

LOL, those wings might drag on the brush where I like to land.

At least it has a tailwheel

I think 180marty’s point was a Lycoming can easily run other fuels than 100LL. A few changes and they can run ethanol. Even my fuel injected Continental doesn’t mind E10 91 in its stock form.

whee wrote:

I think 180marty’s point was a Lycoming can easily run other fuels than 100LL. A few changes and they can run ethanol. Even my fuel injected Continental doesn’t mind E10 91 in its stock form.

Sorry, I missed that implication. Bob Barrows is building my engine, O-360 200hp variant, I will touch base with Bob at a close to delivery time to get my fuel options. I came away from our last conversation that the 200hp limited my non-100LL options. He did say if I wanted a MoGas O-360 he could get it to 180hp, I feel I need the extra 20hp for me DA’s

If you were to start with 91 octane car gas and blended it with ethanol at about 40% you would be right at 100 octane. Pure ethanol is 113 octane. Here in Iowa and other places, they are taking 84 sub octane and blending 10% ethanol to raise the octane to 87 E10. We can still get 87 E0 by mixing 84 and 91. Ethanol at high % has a very low vapor pressure so less likely to vapor lock. For some reason, when 10%, the vapor pressure actually goes up from the base gas it is blended with.

Bob Barrows is building my engine, O-360 200hp variant, I will touch base with Bob at a close to delivery time to get my fuel options.

I'd touch base with the guys that are actually running ethanol in South Dakota. If you look at their schedule I see they were in Moses Lake WA earlier this year for a performance.

My 300 gallon bulk tank at home is getting near needing a fill up, and E-0 premium mogas here is right around 4 bucks a gallon. NOT rubbing it in but bitching! All I can hope for is my check from the FAA for some recent crane work I did on the local VOR site comes in soon, it will nicely cover the cost, making it painless as possible, and I can then say the FAA is paying for my flying

I am more concerned about the cost of crane diesel, and it is slowly coming down, weird though that it's been 40 cents or so CHEAPER than mogas, but I'm not complaining.

The tax credited fuel we get with running PUC plates on our trucks makes the pump price look pretty good compared to non eth. Until the price of the PUC plate is figured in. Guess it depends on how many miles you put on in a year? It all gets expensive!

As to the 100 low lead, I can’t imagine this administration pulling the rug out from underneath us.
Leaving us stranded in the middle of nowhere without any help or recourse. Just setting a date to buy your last tank of fuel or you are on your own? Oh wait.....

180Marty wrote:If you were to start with 91 octane car gas and blended it with ethanol at about 40% you would be right at 100 octane. Pure ethanol is 113 octane. Here in Iowa and other places, they are taking 84 sub octane and blending 10% ethanol to raise the octane to 87 E10. We can still get 87 E0 by mixing 84 and 91. Ethanol at high % has a very low vapor pressure so less likely to vapor lock. For some reason, when 10%, the vapor pressure actually goes up from the base gas it is blended with.

I wonder, theoretically, if 100LL went away, if there would’ve any end blend one could do that would keep a IO520 running happily?

NineThreeKilo wrote:

180Marty wrote:If you were to start with 91 octane car gas and blended it with ethanol at about 40% you would be right at 100 octane. Pure ethanol is 113 octane. Here in Iowa and other places, they are taking 84 sub octane and blending 10% ethanol to raise the octane to 87 E10. We can still get 87 E0 by mixing 84 and 91. Ethanol at high % has a very low vapor pressure so less likely to vapor lock. For some reason, when 10%, the vapor pressure actually goes up from the base gas it is blended with.

I wonder, theoretically, if 100LL went away, if there would’ve any end blend one could do that would keep a IO520 running happily?

Word on the street is that 20% ethanol, 69% 91 unleaded, and 11% ivermectin is going to be the hot new blend in the red states

I’m one of the few it seems who will cheer lead being removed from avgas. Yes, it is bad for us. No, it’s not killing us tomorrow.

We won’t be without alternatives, a 10:1 motor is nothing new in internal combustion. I just installed a new IO520 myself and am not worried about the fuel of the future.

There are already formulations in testing lead free that can match 100LL in octane lean. I suspect 94UL (avgas without lead) STC leaning charts will become available for high compression motors too, and likely approvals at richer fuel settings will follow if we don’t get an immediate higher octane lead free option.

It’s not rocket science, and there is enough demand. Yes we’ll pay more, that’s the nature of everything these days.