I never flew for an airline, and I was never a corporate pilot...unless you consider hauling smelly field crews around the wilderness "corporate flying".

I flew for the government for 28 years, all in Alaska, and before I started flying for the agency, I owned a 90 hp J-3 on floats in summer and Goodyear Airwheels in winter. The entire time I worked commercially I also owned an airplane of one kind or another. For much of the time I worked for the government, I had access to at least two government airplanes, typically a Cub or Husky and a larger airplane: Cessna 180/185, 206 or Beaver.

On days I flew for work, I rarely flew my personal airplane. Those work days were often pretty long, and there were no autopilots (or ramp rats to load/unload) so I was often pretty worn out by the end of a long day in the work airplane.

But, come a day off, as often as not I climbed in the personal airplane and went flying.

Later in my career, I took up flight instructing, and instructed both new agency pilots as well as basic and advanced seaplane and off airport flying techniques. I enjoyed that as much as the flying itself, which never lost its luster.

Most of my peers in the agency also owned airplanes. Many of them lived in bush Alaska, and the airplane provided both a means of recreation, and a ride to "town". Living in Cold Bay, for example, in 1975, a round trip ticket to Anchorage cost just over $700. That is a loooong trip in a Cub, in any case, but I would have enjoyed living in the bush a LOT less had I not been able to get out and see the country.

Eventually, there came a time when I could see that things in the agency weren't going to continue to be as rosy as they had been, and simultaneously, I was offered a job at a University, coordinating their aviation program.... Working with a bunch of young people was as much hard work and as much fun as I've had in my entire career. And, as much bad as we hear about the "next generation" of folks in this country, I found THAT bunch of students to be wonderful...polite, conscientious, and they actually listened to an old fart who many would consider to be full of .....well, you know.

The big difference between the flying I did for a career vs an airline career is that every day I was doing something different: One day aerial wildlife census, the next, radio telemetry locations of collared animals, or hauling field research crews to and from their field camps, plus resupply of those crews, or doing law enforcement work. All of this was done on floats, wheels and skis in all seasons. And, I had the opportunity to work over much of the State of Alaska, with the exception of Southeast Alaska. Lots of variety and you'll never get bored.

I am now retired, and I still own an airplane. I have to admit that, had I chosen not to own airplanes during my working career, I'd have a little more money in the bank today, but I would have missed one of the great privileges and pleasures that life has to offer.

How many people can say that they've flown airplanes for a living AND for fun? That right there is a blessing, folks.

MTV

Yes, I fly for fun on my off time.....and, I fly for fun on my 'on' time!

Headoutdaplane wrote:Yes, I fly for fun on my off time.....and, I fly for fun on my 'on' time!

That was always my theory. And it usually worked out good.

Gump

I fly corporate for a living and we fly a lot, but I still love coming home to my plane and flying whenever and where ever I can.

Just to refocus my question:

Obviously those of you who frequent a board like this and fly "heavy iron" for a living, enjoy the GA side of aviation. My point is how many commercial drivers there are out there who have no interest in flying other than punching the clock and doing their job and treat it just like any other office job.

I don't understand how a person can go through all of the expense, time and hardship it takes to become a professional pilot without having some sort of passion for flying.

To me, this also leads to the conversation of the lack of simple "stick and rudder" skills shown by some of the recent accidents in the commercial world.

I never flew big iron for a living (up north we called it "going legitimate") Instead I'd bounce between single/multi-engine piston stuff, multi-engine turbine when I got coerced into it for "the good of the company," and even a stint or two right seat in light jets.

But what I did do a lot of, pre-9/11, was jumpseat all over the US on the majors. I rode in a whole lot of cockpits with a whole lot of crews, and it was really an eye-opening experience discovering the airline attitudes about GA.

Part 135 in Bush Alaska is really the GA out there. Anchorage, Fairbanks, and places civilized have huge GA fleets, but out in the remote villages GA is minimal, if it even exists at all. That said, most of us flying for a living in the Bush were GA based experience wise, and still had GA mindsets. And to put up with the flying and living conditions, one had to have a basic love of what you were doing. There weren't enough rewards in finances or status to make it otherwise. Time builders did not become Old Timers out there, and to survive it really helped to be an Old Timer.

On the jumpseats however, I'd walk into the cockpit and introduce myself, and then start the usual "Who are you? Who do you fly for? What do you fly ?" drill. The reactions would run the gamut. I'd have old, senior Captain's eyes kinda glaze over, and they'd tell me about their starts in Kotz or Barrow 30 years earlier, and if it wasn't for mortgages and future ex-wives, they'd give it all up in a heartbeat just to go back to those times. Others would look at me with pure scorn, and proudly proclaim, "I've never flown a piston powered aircraft in my life." And ask my why anyone would want to fly in some little piece of shit like that.

Unfortunately, the later was a way more common reaction to GA flying than the former.

I don't jumpseat any more, and with the changes in pay and experience in the 121 world, it's gotta be a weird mix of reasons why people are where they are.

Gump

Av8r3400 wrote:Just to refocus my question:

Obviously those of you who frequent a board like this and fly "heavy iron" for a living, enjoy the GA side of aviation. My point is how many commercial drivers there are out there who have no interest in flying other than punching the clock and doing their job and treat it just like any other office job.

I don't understand how a person can go through all of the expense, time and hardship it takes to become a professional pilot without having some sort of passion for flying.

To me, this also leads to the conversation of the lack of simple "stick and rudder" skills shown by some of the recent accidents in the commercial world.

It can be analogous to all of the time and effort some put into courting a bride, and then after the honeymoon, they discover that it is not all it is cracked up to be.

And this is in every profession, not just airline pilots.

I think one of the aspects that has considerably curbed the enthusiasm of many airline pilots has been the post 9/11 environment. From bankruptcy's, to incompetent and corrupt management, as well a serious decline in salary and benefits, or in a worse case scenario, the total loss of your pension. Add the infamous Human Resources Department where you can get fired for the smallest infraction and you have a formula for a negative work environment.

Another major factor has been the immense stagnation caused by the age 65 retirement rule. This has caused a lot of animosity toward pilots over 60 still flying the line by First Officers who had planned on upgrading to Captain, and even Captains who wanted to fly a bigger piece of equipment.

It's a dog eat dog world in the airlines where your seniority number rules the day.

I was fortunate to make Captain on the 727 by age 30, and have been in the left seat for 24 years.

Others however, hired only a few years later, have been sitting in the right seat for an eternity and it shows.

I think with extended time away from home on trips, some working an extra job to make ends meet, as well as other family obligations make little time for GA in many of their lives.

AV8r3400,

Flew for the airlines, a commuter and a major, and now fly corporate. I have seen the full range of the attitudes you described and can only speak for me. It is great challenge and tremendous fun to take the G550 with it's Synthetic vision, EVS (night vision), HUD, CPDLC, and so forth and launch to exciting cities over the ocean or around the world.




But I love flying and airplanes. One time an acquaintance told me almost apologetically about the Aircoupe parked in his hangar. Of course, I wanted to see it and then, timidly, he asked if I wanted to fly in it. You bet ! says I, so off we went and had a blast. After landing, he was puzzled about my excitement over a "piddly" little Aircoupe when he knew what I flew at work. I explained that I got into aviation because I love to fly and as long as the machine is airworthy, it is a thrill to go up.

I am now part owner on a wonderful Maule M-5 with big tires and going flying into the backcountry or taking my kids or friends for a ride, or to get get lunch is a thrill, a stress relief, and a challenge all at once.



It makes me happy to share aviation with my family and others but I also, at times, love the solitude and freedom to go here or there as I please in the Maule. I have, as has everyone else on this awesome forum, experienced moments where I want time to stand still so I can take it all in. The 24hrs in Hanksville trip report sums it up better than I can write.

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/communi ... 08#p182308


I was flying a Twin Otter over the canyon a few years back, and one morning the ceiling was a down bit (but still VFR) so we had to take the lower altitude route that goes down near Grand Canyon West airport rather than up over the Shivwits Plateau next to Mt. Dellenbaugh. It was a gorgeous flight as we flew the set route below the upper rim. In places, wisps of clouds streamed over the rim. I was captivated by the stunning beauty of it all. I turned around to see if the passengers were enjoying the flight as much as me. One lady caught my attention. She had her face plastered in a people magazine. I was stunned. I thought, "you can read People while sitting on the white throne at home!, Here you are flying through one of the Wonders of the World on an amazing day, how can you miss it!!!" I've seen airline crews do the same, blathering on about the Union and management and bla bla bla. To each their own….

This forum is great. Fun to learn from and see the adventures of folks who love flying.

Maybe related, maybe not:
My same airline captain friend (described above) was routinely amazed that he would fly to some of the great cities of the world, with museums, restaurants, performances, foreign countrysides to explore, etc, and the rest of the crew would just go hit the hotel bar and maybe the hotel fitness room. Hard to figure.

Av8r - good question. I've asked it a lot too. I have a brother-in-law who is a Delta captain (and he has no interest in GA), and a couple good friends who are also airline captains, but they fly cubs too.

They always told me that, maybe, 10% of their coworkers fly GA.

Av8r3400 wrote:Just to refocus my question:

Obviously those of you who frequent a board like this and fly "heavy iron" for a living, enjoy the GA side of aviation. My point is how many commercial drivers there are out there who have no interest in flying other than punching the clock and doing their job and treat it just like any other office job.

I don't understand how a person can go through all of the expense, time and hardship it takes to become a professional pilot without having some sort of passion for flying.

To me, this also leads to the conversation of the lack of simple "stick and rudder" skills shown by some of the recent accidents in the commercial world.

I have found this to be pretty common and is something I've never been able to relate to. Recently I flew a redeye from LAX to JFK, hopped on a plane home to Utah, quickly flew the 205 and started the VG install...and was thrilled to be there! I personally think guys that treat flying as just a place to make money are those that never really had a passion for flight. Guys from the military, who never experienced GA flying are often in this group. The other mindset I find are those that hated their years of giving instruction and view it as a price they had to pay to get to big metal. Again, no joy or appreciation for the moment while they were there doing that type of flying. I believe there are pilots and then there are aviators. Most I fly with are pilots. I strive to be an aviator.

I will say this though, some of those who don't want to be around aircraft on their days off have said, after hearing stories and seeing pics of backcountry flying, that if they could do this type of flying, they could see themselves getting into GA. A large number of guys I fly with have no clue this type of flying exists and the pics and stories are an eye opener.

You've hit on another good point on which pilots are better with the automation off. While the sound of this makes no sense, my flying at work is its best when I've been flying my plane a lot. It would probably be a good thing for all pilots to go back to GA and log a few hours. It definitely would be good for GA.

I'd estimate 10-15% of the US Navy fighter community is actively involved in GA. However, those numbers seem to be on the rise and that is most likely due to the current "buyers market". Unfortunately, many of the people that I work with have zero GA experience and scoff at the idea of flying around firewalled at a fraction of the super hornet's approach speed.

I have flown for a living since I can remember, this Nov I retired from the USAF 28 years and all of them flying fighters. I cant possibly think of not flying for a living, or flying for fun. I finally have my dream airplane in the hangar a MX7-180B, love it, it is challenging and fun. On the weekends I towed gliders for fun at the local glider port, but that will slow down since I have a Maule to get in touch with!

I also fly for an airline and I believe it is challenging and fun to operate heavy metal. I return to the line this Feb after my training in the 737. I know plenty of pilots that just fly for a living, no passion or it left them somewhere along the way. Same for old pilot Colonels, they can talk a good story but less than 10% can operate a fighter like they were Captains and most wont make the effort if given the chance; have seen that with my own eyes...there are exceptions of course.

Passion is difficult to explain, some never had it and never will, they just got to where they wanted and are happy to be there. My brother in law, capt for JB is that way, all he ever thinks about is dollars and schedule, never appreciates flying. Was trying to explain to him how a Flight Path Marker could help his aviation skills in the Airbus but he simply wasnt interested. Flying that ILS on the gonk pilot is good enough...I think the level of passion is different in different folks. I love what I do, and worked at being the best at what I was doing, instructing at a PHD level in the Fighter Weapons School was amazing and competitive, landing my new Maule at home feels the same, challenging! Now I will concentrate on making sure I am the best FO in town so Mau Mau doesnt give me a hard time!

denalipilot wrote:Maybe related, maybe not:
My same airline captain friend (described above) was routinely amazed that he would fly to some of the great cities of the world, with museums, restaurants, performances, foreign countrysides to explore, etc, and the rest of the crew would just go hit the hotel bar and maybe the hotel fitness room. Hard to figure.

Slam - Clickers is another name for these folks. They show up at the hotel and the door goes slam and the lock goes click and you don't see them till time to leave.

"Hey, do you want to go see the Great Wall?" …..Nah….


amazing