I'm hoping to get some insight and advice from ag/firefighting/air taxi/bush pilots, both past and present.

I'm very interested in flying commercially, but not at the airline level. I realize there are tons of different kinds of "alternative" flying jobs out there from banner towing to air tankers, and I'm not limiting myself to any certain one at this point. This would be a second career for me, most likely starting on the side of my current one and then transitioning. I'm now an engineer full time and am finishing up my IFR rating, moving towards commercial over the next year or so. My salary is able to pay for flight training so im not in debt of any form. I realize flying will likely never match my engineering salary, but it's also much more enjoyable than engineering most of the time. I'm still young (25) and have the time to try different things.

I'm open to all advice, especially from people who might've made a career change or fly for hire on the side, but here are a few questions:

- Any flying job recommendations for a low time commercial pilot that could mesh with a full time career in the beginning and then lead to something better? Some of the ones I know of are glider/banner towing, skydiving, CFI (not as interested in CFI honestly). There's a glider towing outfit at the airport I'm based out of and that seems like an ideal place to start since you get lots of tailwheel time, high performance, in an ag plane, and can do it on the weekends.

- Do small cargo (single engine or light twin) or air taxi gigs require massive amounts of hours? Something on the order of flying 206's or other aircraft in a similar category.

- Between IFR and commercial, I will have some time of simply time building to meet the 250 hours. I want to get my tailwheel endorsement in this time, but for these "alternative" type aviation jobs, is there a kind of time that I would benefit most from? Multi, TW, etc?

- are there standard hiring/training practices for small aviation businesses like having to work for them for awhile as something other than PIC?

Honestly, I know threads here on BCP get a lot of advice and everything even without questions, and that's the information I'm looking for. Please feel free to tell me anything you think is relevant to my situation that I didn't ask. There's a few members that I hope chime in specifically.

Thanks,
-Asa

Asa,

Pipeline or powerline patrol is the best time building job at 100 hours per month and the lowest paying, really low. My Ag experience, other than training, is old but Rob has current info. Ag worked well for me when my wife insisted I stay with public school teaching and I was also in the National Guard. If you have the money, buy a Pawnee or CallAir and find a nitch market where the big airplanes don't go. One of my students now flys an AT-802 for Jack Frost and they make the farmer or operator provide a 5,000 gallon tanker with Jet A before they will travel far from the Delta.

You are at the right age and experience level to benefit from maneuvering flight experience. It is so much safer and more comfortable for young people with little corporate or airline experience. Most of our not wash outs but intelligent quits in Ag were ex corporate and airline pilots. They have extensive indoctrination, con-current and recurrent training, experience, and iterations in a completely different flight altitude and orientation. It is not their fault, but thier mustle memory is slow and mostly dangerous in the maneuvering flight world.

Pulling gliders will give you Ag plane experience which will help get an Ag job, but it is a different world. If you have the money, Ag school training is best. Like I told my Ag students, you need a real trade and a mean wife to make it through the winter. Rob can tell you how different things are in the two million dollar airplane that HAS to work year round.

Good luck,

Contact

https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/ ... n-ak-12100

Gump

I’m currently flying fires. SEATs (single engine air tankers). As far as I’m concerned, it’s the best aviation job I’ve ever had. The pay is good, the season is about 3 months, more or less, giving you time to do other things through the winter. It’s a big taildragger (16000 gross weight), flying at high density altitudes, and flying (low) over some of the most beautiful country I’ve ever seen.

Like most of the aviation jobs I’ve had, though, it requires a certain degree of “right time, right place”. I started out in ag as a teenager, flying old clapped out Pawnees, and went on to get the multi, CFI, etc. Did some instructing, charter, and then chased a rainbow or two, but never quit flying, and kept adding experience as I could. I literally was trying to get back into ag after quite the time away, and on a rainy day in a pickup truck was offered a job flying fires.

“Flying what?”....

As I found out more, I was intrigued, went to the required school (you have to be sponsored); got some ferry time in the 802, and then was thrust right into work.

It’s been great. I’ll do this as long as they keep offering me a seat, and I can still climb up on the beast.


In fire, there are several different types of flying:
-air attack....in which the pilot flies a twin (often a Twin Commander), with a trained firefighter (called an “air attack”) in the right seat. Orbits over the fire for usually 2-3 hours, and the AA essentially communicates between the ground forces and the tankers. He deconflicts the airspace, works on tactics, etc. Probably the “easiest” of the fire flying jobs.

-helicopter....anything from heavy tanker helicopters (think Sky Cranes with tanks, that hover over ponds/lakes, suck up water, then drop it on fires), to jet Rangers that carry buckets (Bambi buckets) of water, or carry firefighters. You even have the Kaman (which is for external loads) which looks funny as hell.

-heavy air tankers....DC 10s on down, including the P2V which has two radials, and two jets. Obviously, this group takes a lot of jet time...but the guys doing it love it.

-SEATs...clearly the most manly, steady handed, good-looking group of pilots. Single engine, single seat, carry 800 gallons of retardant (weighs 9.3 lb per gallon). No autopilot, all hand flying, always heavy takeoffs, drop over the fire at 65 feet (turn loose of 7-750 gallons of retardant in 1.2 seconds....it’s a nice E ticket ride).


To get into SEATs (which is my only fire experience) they like to see 500 hours plus of low level flying, mountain experience, at least 100 hours of “dispersal” (translation: ag time, but will consider someone with military low-level dispersion of a different kind); have to have an instrument rating (why I don’t know, as there are no decent IFR panels in any SEAT I’m aware of); and competency at tailwheel flying. Good radio comm is essential..and some guys who were otherwise capable just couldn’t handle the rapid fire radio situation (you are monitoring 2-4 VHF channels, and 2-4 FM channels at all times...you have to be able to sort it out mentally, and shut one or two off when it gets busy).


Reading between the lines....it sounds to me like you are in a situation where you can continue to feed yourself while you get ready to do something more “fun” for a living. My advice, if you are interested in this type of thing, is to get as tailwheel competent as you can, get mountain flying experience, and get some ag time. Personally, I like ag flying...still do some of it..but this is a job you can “grow old” in. Yesterday, there were 4 pilots at the base. At age 60, I was the youngest. Literally.


If you can get with a glider club, and do some towing in a Pawnee, you’ll start building that base of experience. If you can get into a ag job (preferably with a turbine), and get a season or two in that, you would be “hirable”.

PM me if you’d like more info. Also, if you are into reading, I’ve written some about it on my blog cafmustang.com


best wishes

stan

If you're interested in getting into ag flying, most pilots get their start there loading sprayers. A bunch of my former students went that route....load for a season or three, with some flying thrown in in the owner's "other" airplane to evaluate and do some training. Then a seat in something, er....not so expensive. The local sprayers I knew in MN would put a new pilot in an Ag Truck for a season, move them to a piston Air Tractor 301 for a couple seasons, then move them into a turbine Air Tractor or Thrush or Ag Cat. A few of my students went to work for Wilbur Ellis....a very large operator, and they have a very structured program to bring new pilots on. Takes a few seasons, but.....They have a LOT of airplanes, virtually all turbine, and they follow the work, so move around a lot during the season.

I worked for the US Fish & Wildlife Service as a Wildlife Biologist/Airplane Pilot. They are often looking for pilots. All those jobs require at least 500 PIC, a commercial and instrument rating, and 100 night as a minimum. Many require 1500 hours PIC, etc. Great way to earn a living, but generally flying is just part of the job. A biologist position is going to require a degree in an associated field. But, the law enforcement jobs don't require a college degree. Not easy to get into one of these jobs, but in my opinion, they can be the best jobs in the world.

There are air taxi operators who do a lot of natural resource flying. This may be in Cubs, Husky, Scout, Cessnas, etc. Again, you'll need to find an operator who's looking for a pilot, and work your way into one of those jobs. There are more of these types of jobs in Alaska than in the lower 48, same as the USFWS jobs noted above.

With the government jobs, take a look at USA Jobs website and search for GS 2181 pilot positions. That'll give you some idea of requirements.

With government and fire jobs (most of which are air taxi pilots and planes, under contract to the government agency) if you're going to be flying multi engine airplanes, they're going to want to see substantial multi engine time, instrument time, etc. before they plunk you into a twin. As Southern Boy just noted, ag experience is REQUIRED to fly SEAT aircraft, as is "wildland fire experience", whatever that is......

Substantial tailwheel experience is going to be a pre requisite for any commercial job involving taildraggers. Easiest way to get there is buy a Cessna 120/140, a Champ, Taylorcraft, etc.....fly the hell out of it to build time, then sell it. Some of my students did just that, wound up costing them gas money, maintenance money and a little bit more, but really cheap flying.

Various law enforcement agencies operate a lot of aircraft. One of the biggest is Customs and Border Protection, who has a large fleet of both fixed wing and helicopters...... All the big cities and many counties have fairly large fleets of aircraft, as do many state patrols. All those things are going to require that you be primarily a LE officer, although many of these outfits, the pilots do almost no actual LE work. Good pay, great benefits. One caution: CBP (Customs and Border Protection) also operates a lot of drones. Their pilots are getting less and less flight time, and much of the flying program in many parts of the country is being taken over by drone operations. Drone pilots are in demand, largely because they hire pilots to fly drones, and frankly, it ain't the same, so many quit and do something else.

Finally, don't overlook the military. Air Guard units of both the Air Force and Army are often looking for pilots. Does require a certain commitment of time.....but, great training, and some really great aircraft. The ONLY way to get into helicopter flying, frankly. Something to consider in any case. And, the Guard can provide a great "auxiliary" career, that parallels your regular flying job.

Good luck, life has a LOT of options at your age. I'm jealous....

MTV

Exactly the kind of people I wanted to hear from! All great info, thanks a ton.

-Asa

I agree with MTV that Army or Air Guard is good work at good pay. A weekend warrior gets a days pay each four hour block or four days on a Mutual Unit Training Assembly 4 (MUTA 4). A pilot gets 24 additional flight training assemblies per year. Two weeks for all at full pay Federal Temporary Training Duty.

Some years I made more Guard Warrant Officer pay than spraying.

Just don't say, "An Army of One. " Bad orientation. We were, "Be All You Can Be. " Much better orientation.

When I got out of the USAF in 1973, I had my private certificate and immediately started working on my commercial at the Laramie FBO, using my post Viet Nam VA benefits. That paid 90% of the cost, and I kicked in the remaining 10%. At the same time, I opened my law office, and started practicing law.

Fast forward a couple of years. The law practice was doing pretty well, and in the meanwhile, I had gotten my commercial and IR (in that order--a VA requirement at the time) and did my first "real" commercial flight, bringing a new 172 from the factory to the FBO in Laramie in 1975. No pay, but some good experience, and I didn't ding the airplane! I flew commercial to Wichita, hung around the delivery center for awhile while the airplane was readied, did a really thorough preflight, and headed for home, stopping in Goodland, KS for dinner/fuel and arriving at home around 10 p.m. I was starting to work on my CFI, when the FBO offered me a part time job if I could pass the ATCO (Part 135 air taxi) checkride. It wasn't an issue of money--the pay was awful--but a way to get away from the humdrum of a law office.

At the time I took the first ATCO ride, there were 6 of us, 3 newbies like me and 3 of the guys who were already on the payroll. I was the only newbie that passed, although I don't recall that the ride was all that difficult--in a 182, an airplane in which I had trained for my IR, and I was part owner of another 182, so I was pretty familiar with it.

I started doing relatively local charters. My very first one was a baggage charter in a 182 with the passenger seat and back seat removed. That was for the daughter of the CEO of Revlon, from the A-Bar-A Ranch south of Saratoga, WY, to Denver Stapleton. The passengers were taken by our chief pilot in the T310. I got a $20 tip! Wow!

Over the next few years, I flew some really interesting people to places I wouldn't have otherwise flown, mostly throughout Wyoming and northern Colorado. The farthest trip was to Iowa City taking an injured trucker with his leg in a full length cast to his home--we took out the 182's passenger seat, and he rode in the back seat with his leg outstretched--had to be terribly uncomfortable. The most interesting trip was to Jackson, WY, taking a man who was about to run for governor--we became friends, and both of us recall the details of that trip (I just saw him a few months ago)--but that's a story for another day. One of my passengers was Curt Gowdy, a well known media broadcaster at the time.

Meanwhile, I had obtained my CFI and CFII, so I was also part-time instructing, both basic and advanced. I also helped out other instructors whose students were plateauing, especially on landings. These were darned good instructors, but it's amazing what a different instructor can do at times to help a student get past a plateau.

When that FBO folded, I flew for its replacement, still doing much the same stuff, part time instructing and part time charter flying. Again, my purpose wasn't to supplement my income so much as to give me an outlet, a respite from the office, a way to keep my sanity, so to speak.

My total time doing this was roughly a dozen years. It was a lot of fun, and I became a much better pilot for the experience.

Whether something like what I did is practicable today, I don't know. There aren't very many SE charter outfits around any more, although it was pretty common back in the 70s and 80s. I suspect today there'd be more possibilities for someone who also had a ME--I never got one.

Cary

I was in your shoes when I was 25. I joined the Air Force and 18 years later I'm two years away from retirement with 6000 TT under my belt, about 4500 of that multi-engine turbine. I'm starting to think about what's next.

The AF certainly has its pitfalls and there's plenty of risk, but it's been good to me. If I were you, I'd at least consider some form of military aviation.

+100 on working for an agency...20 years goes by really fast. Having a 401k and a pension after a career of flying well maintained aircraft with regular training and a paycheck not based on tach time is hard to beat. Working in law enforcement I saw a lot of commercial pilots trying to get into a Crown Victoria because they were tired of living hand-to-mouth. It was sort of sad and really made me glad that I worked for a government agency, even with all the inherent BS.

500 hrs with a Comm and Inst gets you a job out of Bethel AK flying 206/207 and all the hours you want, they need pilots badly up there.

Read "map of my dead pilots" first though, it is the most honest look at flying 135 in AK I have read, and will give you a pretty good idea of what you are in for.

Headoutdaplane wrote:500 hrs with a Comm and Inst gets you a job out of Bethel AK flying 206/207 and all the hours you want, they need pilots badly up there.

Two friends just hired on with Ace Air Cargo with less than 200TT!

All of this is excellent information, and I appreciate data points like the last couple posts as well! I don't feel a need to respond to anything that's been posted - just absorbing it all.

Thanks,
Asa

One point if you're thinking of an Alaska air taxi job: Send out resumes to outfits you're interested in. Then get on a plane and go introduce yourself. The folks who take the time and trouble to show up often get the jobs.

MTV

Big +1 on that advice.

Gump


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

In general, I don't have a whole lot to add to the good info the others have posted, but would like to make a couple of observations.

As a general rule, the 'alternative' flying careers you've listed tend to generate income, and flying responsibilities, directly proportionate to your personal input. Unless you are the owner of something on the order of Fluor Daniel, do not sell them too short, you'd be surprised at the incomes some of the degenerates with wings can muster up On the other side of that, if you need to be hand held, and just want to come in punch the clock and leave with minimal personal investment, they all can be some of the poorest ways to make a living (financially) out there.

Next, 'Enjoyable' can be very much subjective... Waking up at Johnson creek on an off weekend morning, and blasting into thick cool air with not a ripple in the sky as you hop from cool mountain strip to another is indeed enjoyable, the fire guys will have a whole new word for working that very same country when it's on fire, as will the 135 guys slinging pop, or the ag guys fighting mid day turbulence to keep things up right... Many of them (us) love our jobs like a second wife, (ok, a first and only for some ) but having had more than one person in a working airplane while performing various 'alternate' flying jobs, I can attest to the fact that not everyone finds the day in - day out of it enjoyable...

If at all possible, I'd recommend getting as close as you can to what path you might choose, before you dive in head first and dump a ton of cash energy, and commitment into a career that may not be what you thought it was... I know too many banner, ag, seat, 135 drop outs who are all great guys! They found just too many irreconcilable differences in the day to day grind that the job really turned out to be.

Lastly, many of the jobs talked about here could probably be pulled off in small doses... but the meat and potatoes ones are going to require you to be there, and be committed... I'd suggest whatever path you pick, pick it with gusto... There's a certain satisfaction that goes with doing something really well, (probably even more so when there's not another soul to know it) and in most of these lines, 'really well' and 'part time' don't really go hand in hand...

A good one to reference re SEAT and AG time;

https://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/ ... time-14724

Take care, Rob

Rob really hit the nail on the head. In my career, I recall pilots who asked me how I wound up flying more hours than they did....my response was that I flew weekends, holidays, or whenever somebody needed flying done, and pretty much wherever. I wasn't worried about being home every night.

And, I had a boss who felt that sharing of resources (airplanes and pilot) was part of his job. But, as Rob says, if you want every weekend off, you want to be home every night promptly at 4:30 PM, many of these jobs aren't for you.

If you want to fly, though.....there are a lot of really great ways to earn a living doing so, and seeing some fantastic country in the process.

MTV

Rob and contact flying have given you good advice.
(terminology clarification...a SEAT is a Single Engine Air Tanker, mostly Air Tractor 802s....what I fly. They call it an Air Tractor because fully loaded, it flies like a tractor. a “seat” is a spot in a plane, usually an ag plane, meaning “job”. I’ve noticed some confusion on that in some discussions).

You take a mountain flying course, they tell you “don’t fly in the middle of the day, don’t fly in high winds, don’t fly near weather, don’t fly near fires, stay away from turbulence”.

My dispatch on Saturday was at 3 pm, into a 30 kt wind, up in high terrain, near a fire....in smoke...rougher than a cob. My dispatch Sunday was at 0830 am, into the smoothest air I’ve seen in a long time. 4 SEATs worked in tandem, laying line up on steep terrain. All of them were excellent (except maybe me...), it was choreography of the finest nature.

I love my job. Unless my boss fires me, or I get to where I can’t climb up on the plane, I’m gonna continue doing it. I had a career many would (and have) sacrificed to get into, but I like this better.


stan

(tales of fire flying on cafmustang.com)

I probably shouldn't say anything because I don't have any professional flying experience but I do have lots of experience not chasing my dreams I don't know how many times I've asked questions about flying jobs to the guys here on BCP and received fantastic frank advice. Always the advice convinced me to stick with my engineering job and fly for fun.

Here is my 2 cents: Pay attention to what these guys are saying because they have been there, done that but don't let them scare you off. Based on what they say take a realistic look at what you want to do and if it checks out then do it. When I was 25, married with no kids I could have made it work, I could have done any of the things I'm now wishing I would have done. Now I'm 33, married with 3 kids and I'm stuck. My dreams of a flying career are over. Now I'm Mr. Mom, haven't flown in 2 years, with no idea what I'm going to do with my life once the kids grow up...it sucks. Life isn't what I thought or wanted it to be. If you are like I was and spend your working days in a cubicle wishing you were slinging cargo in a C206 for Middle Fork Aviation then I'd suggest you take an honest look and see if you can make it happen. You'll always have the engineering degree and experience to fall back on.

Here's an honest assessment of me: I'm jealous of my buddy that I started the flight program with at USU. He's now a Captain at a regional making $90k/yr and I'm not sure that he is ever actually at work I'm jealous of piperpainter because he is making it happen; flying right seat at a regional I think. I'm jealous of the dude I sold my plane to, he's flying U2s at work and a Luscombe on the weekends...does it get any better than that I'm jealous of my cousin who I thought was crazy to take out loans to pay for helicopter flight training. He's now flying for an air rescue outfit in Ohio. I'm jealous of the guy that got the engineering job I chased for 4 years because he did what I knew it would take to get the job; veterans preference or 2 years with the Peace Corps. If I could go back to being 25 I'd join the military as a pilot. I think by the time my commitment was up I'd be ready to sleep in my own bed every night and would have what I needed to get the engineering job that I want. But that's me. Overall I have a good life; I get to spend every day with my awesome kids and I have a great wife. But I wish I would have done things different with my career.