Whee, I can't tell you the number of "new" pilots I saw come north over the years. 50-60 years old, grown kids long gone from their houses, retired or quit decades worth of careers, all to come fly little airplanes in Alaska for a living.

And, up there to get a new start on life, or, they came to the realization that the time to chase that dream was fast running out.

They had maturity, work ethic, and weren't there to build hours for that big airline job and disappear in a year or two. I really liked seeing guys like that show up, and if they were trainable and good sticks, they were a welcome addition to the group.

Plus, I'd take one 60 to two 25s at the pilot house any day of the week. Neat, clean, and quiet is worth it's weight in gold.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:Whee, I can't tell you the number of "new" pilots I saw come north over the years. 50-60 years old, grown kids long gone from their houses, retired or quit decades worth of careers, all to come fly little airplanes in Alaska for a living.

And, up there to get a new start on life, or, they came to the realization that the time to chase that dream was fast running out.

They had maturity, work ethic, and weren't there to build hours for that big airline job and disappear in a year or two. I really liked seeing guys like that show up, and if they were trainable and good sticks, they were a welcome addition to the group.

Plus, I'd take one 60 to two 25s at the pilot house any day of the week. Neat, clean, and quiet is worth it's weight in gold.

Gump

YUP! Have chatted with a guy at the other site who a number of years ago just up and left his desk job at about 50 years old to fly 207s in Alaska. That's my dream job! I can take an "early" retirement and collect my pension at 50. Alaska is where I'm headed to do exactly what Gump describes. I have about 9 years to build time, certifications, and experience to make myself marketable.

Whether you're the OP or Whee, or whoever, you just have to put your mind to it and set yourself up for success. I know it sounds cliché but it is so true. I have family and friends that go through life waiting for things to happen rather than making things happen.

YUP! Have chatted with a guy at the other site who a number of years ago just up and left his desk job at about 50 years old to fly 207s in Alaska. That's my dream job! I can take an "early" retirement and collect my pension at 50. Alaska is where I'm headed to do exactly what Gump describes. I have about 9 years to build time, certifications, and experience to make myself marketable.

Whether you're the OP or Whee, or whoever, you just have to put your mind to it and set yourself up for success. I know it sounds cliché but it is so true. I have family and friends that go through life waiting for things to happen rather than making things happen.[/quote]

That guy on the "other site" is named Eric. He's now flying Caravans, but as the gent noted, Eric quite a good paying job when his kids were grown and started working two weeks on/two weeks off, with pass privileges. He's now been at it for several years, and he's loving it.

MTV

asa,

As long as you are working on instrument and commercial anyway, you might schedule the flight test with Todd Underwood DPE in Prescott, Arizona. He trains Forest Service pilots in AT802s on floats.

I flew with him when I was doing a clinic out there. He is the best young instructor I have ever flown with. He had independently come up with many very similar techniques. Energy management is just common sense, I think.

Jim

A line of flying I've really enjoyed has been as a lodge float pilot. It's the least amount of flight time I've done, about 100 a season, but it's challenging. Meeting and hanging out with new clients is great. Get to do some fishing, plus the pay isn't bad.

I too want a SEAT. I've always thought that would be a sweet job, especially a fire boss. I'm actually looking for my first ag job for next season.

Tangogawd wrote:A line of flying I've really enjoyed has been as a lodge float pilot. It's the least amount of flight time I've done, about 100 a season, but it's challenging. Meeting and hanging out with new clients is great. Get to do some fishing, plus the pay isn't bad.

This brings up a question I've been wondering about. It seems easy enough to get a ASES rating by going somewhere for a few days and learning how to fly floats. But is there a typical way people build enough time on floats (beyond that initial rating) for a company to trust them flying commercially? It seems obvious that a company hiring a float pilot would want up near 100-200 hours on them. I figure there is always the usual people who learned to fly on floats and things like that, but for the rest of the world, are there certain jobs where, say, 10 hours on floats could get you started?

Thanks again for all the info.

-Asa

Easy, you buy one and fly the shit out of it!

Gump

I spent a summer flying around, used a friends plane. About half the time was spent with high time retired float pilots showing me everything they knew. They weren't instructors, but that doesn't matter. They pushed my envelope, which forced me to learn fast. I found it fairly easy to find someone to fly with, and if not, I had plenty of new techniques to practice.

Don't underestimate the opportunities that getting your CFI can offer. Like you I really wasn't feeling that route was for me. I owned my own plane, and figured I would just spend that money in fuel and fly my wings off. I did the math every way I could, and the money that it would cost me to get my CFI would actually not buy enough gas to build enough hours for my first commercial job. The CFI has paid for itself countless times in just the few years I've had it. AND, I enjoy doing it! Doing flight reviews and contract instruction has allowed me to build time in airframes that I needed, and you cant rent, such as C185, and beavers, on both wheels and floats. A lot of schools are hurting for instructors, so they are offering better pay, and additional training and ratings, such as CFII, tailwheel, floats, skis. There are schools here in AK offering these, with time building as an instructor. I was able to get my CFII and MEI at the school I worked at, to include the multi PIC time I needed for the MEI on their coin. And, you get to build your own schedule. Work as much, or little as you want.

Like whee, I have a friend that has young kids, and couldn't leave his real paying job to take on flying. He was jealous of all his friends going off to flying jobs. But, he got his CFI, he got his CFII with me at the school. He worked nights and weekends for years, part-time. He and his wife made it work, and when the time was right, he got picked up by Horizon. It can be done.

Asa,
Thank you for starting this thread, I read every post as I have similar interest in flying as you.

And a thank you to everyone that posted their experience and advice/opinion.

And now back to lurking.

-Ansel

I have been away from the site for awhile and returned to ask for some career advice. I'm glad I found this thread and that it is active. The advice on ag/fire/bush flying is certainly helpful.

I will be transitioning from the Navy in the next six months and I am not sure if I want to put my effort into my flying career or the career I actually have a bachelors and masters to support. I only racked up 900 hours in the military since my last two tours have been non-flying but I have another 500 hours of civilian experience. Thankfully I've only been out of the cockpit for a year and I hear that my Cessna 140 misses me. Given the amount of federal service I have it makes sense for me to pursue a civilian federal job since I can add my military time towards retirement (for a price). I am taking the approach that I am going to work for the agency first and if a flying job pops up I will have the currency and ratings to jump on it. We'll see how that works out for me in the next few years. In the mean time I need to get my CFI if only to pass on the knowledge of tailwheel flying. I am also looking at getting my A&P with part of my GI bill because I like wrenching on planes almost as much as flying them.

My Navy buddies are a strange lot. Some are burned out on flying and want nothing to do with it. They are the guys getting MBAs and going to Apple/Amazon/Google. Others have been dreaming about flying airliners since they were kids and are following that dream. When I explain my plan for flying for the USFS/BLM/NPS/Fire they are interested until I explain they usually require 90 days of wildland firefighting experience (this translates into a summer or two of working for GS3/4 pay). The idea of manual labor and $13 an hour is not enticing to them. For me, I never want to build a powerpoint brief again and can't imagine a better work environment than mountains in trees.

Swindler, My only advice is this; if you use your veterans preference to get a federal job make sure you stick with it long enough to get merit status so that if you leave and want to come back you can qualify as a merit candidate. I agree, working in the outdoors is a awesome way to make a living. You are exactly where I wish I was.

Swindler wrote:I have been away from the site for awhile and returned to ask for some career advice. I'm glad I found this thread and that it is active. The advice on ag/fire/bush flying is certainly helpful.

I will be transitioning from the Navy in the next six months and I am not sure if I want to put my effort into my flying career or the career I actually have a bachelors and masters to support. I only racked up 900 hours in the military since my last two tours have been non-flying but I have another 500 hours of civilian experience. Thankfully I've only been out of the cockpit for a year and I hear that my Cessna 140 misses me. Given the amount of federal service I have it makes sense for me to pursue a civilian federal job since I can add my military time towards retirement (for a price). I am taking the approach that I am going to work for the agency first and if a flying job pops up I will have the currency and ratings to jump on it. We'll see how that works out for me in the next few years. In the mean time I need to get my CFI if only to pass on the knowledge of tailwheel flying. I am also looking at getting my A&P with part of my GI bill because I like wrenching on planes almost as much as flying them.

My Navy buddies are a strange lot. Some are burned out on flying and want nothing to do with it. They are the guys getting MBAs and going to Apple/Amazon/Google. Others have been dreaming about flying airliners since they were kids and are following that dream. When I explain my plan for flying for the USFS/BLM/NPS/Fire they are interested until I explain they usually require 90 days of wildland firefighting experience (this translates into a summer or two of working for GS3/4 pay). The idea of manual labor and $13 an hour is not enticing to them. For me, I never want to build a powerpoint brief again and can't imagine a better work environment than mountains in trees.

Swindler,

What are your degrees in? There are a lot of other federal jobs where flying is a "collateral duty" besides fire fighting jobs. Depending on your degrees, there may be a lot of options, some of which you might not have noted.

MTV

Both my BS and MA are in anthropology/archaeology. I have a little experience doing section 106 archaeology and cultural resource management which are really the only ways to make a living with those degrees. Since I did my thesis on wildland firefighting in Yellowstone I think I would make a great interpretive park ranger somewhere that experiences a lot of fire but I am open to anything in the West.

If I had a degree in wildlife biology the flying biologist jobs would be at the top of my list. The hours/qualifications are pretty low for those jobs but that is probably because finding someone with that education and a commercial license is not common. My dad did this type of flying in Maine for years, flying seaplanes with radio gear to track bears and other wildlife survey programs.

I still maintain that having a backup career to aviation is essential. I flew to Oshkosh one year with a retired Air Force/Delta captain. His advise to me, and his kids, was that he was lucky to not have had a medical issue that pulled him permanently from the cockpit. Have something else that can pay the bills.

Swindler wrote:Both my BS and MA are in anthropology/archaeology. I have a little experience doing section 106 archaeology and cultural resource management which are really the only ways to make a living with those degrees. Since I did my thesis on wildland firefighting in Yellowstone I think I would make a great interpretive park ranger somewhere that experiences a lot of fire but I am open to anything in the West.

If I had a degree in wildlife biology the flying biologist jobs would be at the top of my list. The hours/qualifications are pretty low for those jobs but that is probably because finding someone with that education and a commercial license is not common. My dad did this type of flying in Maine for years, flying seaplanes with radio gear to track bears and other wildlife survey programs.

I still maintain that having a backup career to aviation is essential. I flew to Oshkosh one year with a retired Air Force/Delta captain. His advise to me, and his kids, was that he was lucky to not have had a medical issue that pulled him permanently from the cockpit. Have something else that can pay the bills.

That's good advice. Another area is natural resource law enforcement. Many agencies have difficulty finding qualified LE types who also have flying qualifications. Many/most agencies now want to see P.O.S.T. qualifications, but some agencies will provide that training. The feds have their own equivalent: Federal Law Enforcement Training Center....FLETC, and the agency pays that bill. And, this is a career that offers options if a medical issue precludes flying.

Also, in some agencies (Minnesota is one as an example), the LE folks have the keys to the agency airplanes, so they wind up doing a lot of the wildlife surveys/radio telemetry, etc.

MTV

In response to the original post, back country air taxi operators in Idaho general will want 1000 to 1500 hours, but you might be able to talk your way in with less if you can fly good, sound like you might stay around for a few years and they really need someone. Most are seasonal so it may work with another career depending on how flexible it is. Pay is not that great so a second job for the winter is almost a necessity. Definitely would not compete with pay of a government job but then someone has to pay the taxes to pay for those good jobs

Earlier in the thread was mention of drones, and the affect increasing use of these aircraft has on the demand for 'in the airframe' pilots. Several pilots also mentioned how they folded aviation into a workable adjunct to another line of work. For Cary it was law, for others, maybe something else. I used a plane for personal transportation for over 20 years. Some of that transportation was fire fighting related (getting to/from a job), some related to other resource/forestry related work. Now I augment retirement by flying SE fire patrols and a little bit of air attack. I like it, I hope I can continue to do it for a long time. I doubt current, piloted airframes will compete with 'eyes in the sky' autonomous aircraft over even the medium term.

FWIW, I think there's going to be a diminishing demand for fire fighting, resource related (ag?), and air taxi pilots. Several things are all coming together. AD/S-B is a big deal because it offers an out to the 'see and avoid' problem that has yet to be resolved by 'sense and avoid' for drones. Artificial Intelligence (AI) is a big deal because it's already being used in fully autonomous vehicles (cars, planes, and ships). Frankly, if AI can safely pilot a car on the highways and byways of the world navigating the airways is a piece of cake. Several recent articles give us a glimpse of what's coming. Yesterday I read about fully autonomous drones that will refuel naval aircraft. The day before that I read about Uber's push to put driverless taxis on the road. I recently saw a very interesting unclassified discussion of fully autonomous battle tanks and a discussion of AI guided guards. A month ago I read about the fully autonomous aircraft that Airbus plans to have in the air next year, and carrying passengers by 2027. A quick look at aerial fire fighting stats makes it pretty clear risk is being transferred from ground fire fighters to pilots and air crews. A few messy accidents and I expect to see a repeat of the catharsis a few years ago when a video was made of the wings falling off a C130. Both Sense and Avoid (via AD/S-B) and AI are primitive by tomorrows standards, but (unfortunately for those of us who want to fly for a living) tomorrow is rapidly approaching. IMHO, media reports of fatal accidents, the drive to manage risks, and NTSB accident investigations that are highly critical of 'the way we do it' will drive a steady erosion of pilot jobs in favor of ground operated drones and eventually fully autonomous aircraft. My advice, which I've offered to my kids, is think hard about your niche. Is what you want to do likely to fall prey to automation sooner, or later? Envision your niche as one that will be around for awhile. Then acquire the skills you'll need to go after that niche. Maybe your niche is related to Ag flying or ops, maybe it's Part 135 into back country or uncontrolled airstrips, maybe it's combining personal/business transportation with something else. Dunno. All I really know is where I've been, and that looking back is a poor way to plan for the future.

Good luck.

PapernScissors said:

FWIW, I think there's going to be a diminishing demand for fire fighting, resource related (ag?), and air taxi pilots.

I think you are on to something about that. I was a wildland fire fighter for 31 years then another 14 years after retirement. Even the cell phone era had an impact. It has eliminated the need for aerial detection flights. On the Gifford Pinchot NF 40 years ago we flew two to four detection flights per day through the fire season. There would be two planes in the air for most of the day. Now they just wait for the public to call smokes in on their cell phones. I can't remember the last time they used a fire detection plane.

One local fire district here in the Kittitas valley is using a drone for recon on initial attack wildland fires now.

Farmers don't need a plane to monitor crops any more. They just put up a drone.

There's no question that my descendants a few generations from now will look at the manned aircraft I fly like we look at wooden sailing ships now. Technology is advancing but days with no manned aircraft are still a long ways off. Everything I read is that there's a supply/demand problem in aviation right now which translates into opportunity for those willing and able to seize it. It's smart to be practical and have a backup plan in case you lose your medical, but don't be so conservative or pragmatic that you are afraid to follow your dream.

The other question I'd ask the original poster is what is it about aviation that interests you? For example, is it the ability to help other people? Be in control of something? Travel? Master a technical skill? If you can figure that out, you have really opened your options to other careers that might satisfy you. For example, I learned that (even though I am an extreme introvert) I really enjoy helping other people. Now I do that as an Air Force C-130 pilot, but someday I might get as much satisfaction from helping others in some other way.

slowmover wrote:

The other question I'd ask the original poster is what is it about aviation that interests you? For example, is it the ability to help other people? Be in control of something? Travel? Master a technical skill? If you can figure that out, you have really opened your options to other careers that might satisfy you. For example, I learned that (even though I am an extreme introvert) I really enjoy helping other people. Now I do that as an Air Force C-130 pilot, but someday I might get as much satisfaction from helping others in some other way.

Well, I already have another career as an engineer, so I don't need to figure out 'another career' other than aviation. But the aspects that drive nearly every pursuit in my life are problem solving and exploration/adventure. That exists in my engineering career through aerospace R&D work which is why I got my masters. In flying, I find those same needs satisfied even when I'm flying a 172 to an airport in western nebraska that I haven't been to before where I might have to figure a few things out to land in the best way.

There's also the huge aspect of pure machine operation. I love figuring out how to make machines do what they were built for (and sometimes what they weren't built for) in the best possible way. This probably started on tractors and lawn mowers growing up, went to motorcycles, cars, milling machines, lathes, you name it. And now the latest machine I've fell in love with are airplanes.

Just to clarify one point...you don’t have to have ground fire experience to fly tankers, or air attack (as a pilot...to*be* an air attack you do need ground fire experience).


At present, there is a pretty good demand for qualified SEAT pilots, and air attack pilots.