hotrod150 wrote: I guess the moral of this story is that there are a lot of idiots out there, so beware.

That was exactly my point in posting this Hotrod. My intention was to warn the pilot community to beware of them around the Newport area. They seemed really dumb and they wanted any excuse to pick a fight. I can not be held accountable for problems that their actions cause because I don't sick the law on them. I am a believer that communities are much better suited for handling douche-bags who make trouble in their environment than hired law enforcement ever has been or ever will be.

Communities have an interest in preserving the good things that are shared by the community and protecting its members who contribute to the group, while law enforcement/lawmakers make a priority of preserving and expanding their own authority and thereby further restricting our freedoms under the guise of our safety Indeed the feds will most likely read this thread and do with this info what they will, but I am not necessarily a believer that their involvement will improve the situation in our favor.

The idiot behavior aside, remember that radios are not even required in a/c at an uncontrolled field. A lot of the older cubs without electrical systems have no radios - I fear them the most. Me? I talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk in the hopes of not being a statistic. Did I mention I talk?

At 80 to 90 miles an hour it's lucky that the J4 didn't burst into flames! Anyway, I still on balance prefer uncontrolled fields though about three quarters of my time has been in a controlled environment. Bay Tracon. There was a time when ATC hands used to say; "We're not the police". I'm not so sure many of them feel that way any longer. Flight following is of course a good bunch generally as long as I know where I'm going which is not often the case. I don't like assigned altitudes either when VFR. I imagine I've been a problem at one time or another to just about everybody. I'm putting strobes on the Zenith.

EB

Several years ago approching JC from yellow Pine short final full flaps there is a LARGE BLACK SOMTHING ON THE RUNWAY , Go around damm near wound up in the trees!! after landing found out some lady was washing her tarp in the sprinklers, never saw her the rest of the weekend! bad seen.

Sierra Hotel wrote:The idiot behavior aside, remember that radios are not even required in a/c at an uncontrolled field. A lot of the older cubs without electrical systems have no radios - I fear them the most. Me? I talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk in the hopes of not being a statistic. Did I mention I talk?

I'd rather deal with 4 NORDO Cubs in the pattern if the pilots are doing a good job of see and avoid, than ONE dumbbell with a full radio stack and his head up his ass. Of course, I've seen Cub pilots with that rectal/cranial inversion going on too- it's not restricted to spamcanners (like me).

Headoutdaplane wrote:I thought the lower aircraft on landing had the right of way. Sounds like this instructor needs to review his FAR/AIM

Maybe we should all review it. Read FAR 91.113 right of way.
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface.....
When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
Maybe a good question would be who has the right-of-way, the aircraft on final or the aircraft at the lower altitude? (both? or neither?)

I've had a few close ones, mostly just random encounters of a plane without a radio, wrong freq. oops, didn't see you. The one that sticks in my mind was me not hearing inbound on a calm day, and using the opposite runway. The inbound guy was so pissed, he chased me down the runway so we could meet on his base/ my crosswind. Repeating his position or doing a 360 could have avoided the whole scene, but he wanted to scare me or something. A lot of these things could be avoided by assuming the other guy has no malice rather than assuming he's an asshole. Calm days are the worst, planes can come from any direction. The best comeback I ever heard to opposite direction encounter was "sorry, didn't hear you call 02, we'll land 20 right and get out of the way" as he plunked the cub down on the taxiway.

Someone mentioned that the local protocol of getting too close creates a safety lapse, and it's true. I see that at my ag airport flying with 3-4 air tractors, seperation distance is called in wingspans at times. It's also true though, that when you're exposed to that, see and avoid becomes second nature and LAHSO's are practiced daily. At our airport, Airtractors have priority over everything except aircraft on fire.

there are two very valid reasons to keep your traffic patterns in close:

One is the most familiar: Stay within gliding range of the runway, in case the engine fails.

The second is perhaps less familiar, but in my opinion, far more important: By remaining very close to the runway, your aircraft is far easier to SEE by other aircraft. A smaller area to search, plus being where we expect to see other aircraft makes you a lot easier to find by other pilots entering the pattern.

Unfortunately, these days, "Bomber Patterns" seem to be the norm in flight training. Flight training around one of the biggest flight training programs in the country, and operating from an uncontrolled field heavily used by that program, I learned to expect to find aircraft on four mile final, after turning base, thinking somehow they were IN the pattern.

Student pilots understandably trend toward wide patterns......frankly, most of them are subconsciously putting off that scary landing thing as long as possible, but most young instructors are just as averse to fly tight patterns.....frankly, they're just as scared of the landing as their students....

Also, this particular training program fancies that it's preparing students to fly airliners, and somehow management at some point decided that students should be taught from the git-go to fly a descent profile like an airliner.....in a 172 including ridiculously fast approach speeds, rather than teaching them to fly the airplane, understanding that every airplane should be flown appropriate to the type.

So, many pilots are taught to fly big patterns, and if they learned big patterns are good, bigger patterns must be even better.

I've met pilots flying light to medium twins who argued their aircraft HAD to be flown like a Boeing, so straight ins or huge patterns resulted. After a close and safe pattern and landing demo, much muttering ensued.

Many if not most pilots will never experience an engine failure in their flying career, to be honest. And most pilots recognize that, so telling them to stay close to the runway for that reason is a hard sell.

But the best reason to stay close is to make your airplane easier to find by other pilots.

MTV

Nosedragger wrote:Someone mentioned that the local protocol of getting too close creates a safety lapse, and it's true. I see that at my ag airport flying with 3-4 air tractors, seperation distance is called in wingspans at times. It's also true though, that when you're exposed to that, see and avoid becomes second nature and LAHSO's are practiced daily. At our airport, Airtractors have priority over everything except aircraft on fire.

AG operators have their own set of rules when it comes to operations at uncontrolled airports:

§137.45 Nonobservance of airport traffic pattern.
Notwithstanding part 91 of this chapter, the pilot in command of an aircraft may deviate from an airport traffic pattern when authorized by the control tower concerned. At an airport without a functioning control tower, the pilot in command may deviate from the traffic pattern if—

(a) Prior coordination is made with the airport management concerned;

(b) Deviations are limited to the agricultural aircraft operation;

(c) Except in an emergency, landing and takeoffs are not made on ramps, taxiways, or other areas of the airport not intended for such use; and

(d) The aircraft at all times remains clear of, and gives way to, aircraft conforming to the traffic pattern for the airport.

Note that this doesn't give the Ag operator any priority for landing. In fact, if they're flying a non standard pattern, they're required to give the right of way to any traffic in the standard pattern.

At my previous field, there was a lot of Ag flying, and I always found those folks to be far more knowledgeable about traffic patterns and much more observant of traffic than many of the other pilots operating around there.

I always try to offer the right of way to a working airplane, if I'm just geeking around or flight training. They're trying to get some work done, and their days are often long. And I think that's good practice.

But that does not imply that they actually have a priority in the system.

MTV

That's reminds me of when I was in the Pease (KSPM) traffic pattern with two National Guard KC135 tankers who were doing touch and goes on the 11000' runway... 172 landing speed was almost half of theirs, their pattern speed was almost double mine... . They needed the go around practice.


Learning to fly at a small grass strip has taught me a lot, and the proper traffic pattern is one of them. And looking out the windows even if you don't hear anything on the radio. Ultralights, Cubs with no radios, pilots who fly the 737 patterns... Those wide patterns suck because you can't see then when you're taxiing, the trees block the view of them.

When I flew up to Sanford, Maine for my checkride, one plane decided to land ahead of me from a right base, and another decided to land on the cross runway from a right base. Instructors told me it happened all the time up there. I guess it puts them closer to their hangers when they land or something. I just extended the downwind until things looked clear. What else can you do but laugh? I did get to listen in on one of the instructors chew a know-it-all pilot out after some interesting flying in the pattern. I felt sorry for his student that had to fly with him afterwards...

Sprayers have the best situation because we stay low where we can see everyone in the pattern, stay close so we can see everyone on the ground, and give way to everyone so we will always land behind them. Stealth is soo comforting. For everyone else, would not staying calm be helpful. No radio is required so there is no way to know what is in his mind. If you just stay out of his way and don't try to judge him, perhaps he will give you the same courtesy the next time. Or do it like sprayers. Give way to everyone. When I flew pipeline patrol I operated exactly as if I were in a spray plane without a radio. In some fifty thousand landings, one guy saw me and complained about the way I operated.

+1

I try my best to stay totally out of the way of everybody. If that means I have to loiter a few miles out until the gaggle is gone, so be it. I like peace and quiet, and having the whole pattern and airport to myself.

Unless I have to pee real bad. Then f**k it. I'm coming straight in to the airport's front gate off the highway, and landing between the third row of hangars so I can jump out before the prop stops. That qualifies as an emergency. Get out of my way!

Gump

I will 2nd what MTV said and also add enter the pattern on the 45! Even at my grass strip (Hampton) people enter the pattern in every which way they see fit, radio and non radio. Scares the heck out of me seeing some of the close calls. Just use the 45 and make it easier to see the other airplane. The most dangerous entry's are the crosswind and midfield cross over into the downwind, see it all the time…

G44

I guess it makes sense at civil airports to enter on the 45 every time. At Army airfields we all have radios and enter the pattern wherever practical to either save time or ease ATC's efforts for separation.

Bad habit transfer but I tend to do the same wherever I fly. Call my intentions and fly them. I've never dealt with NORDO traffic before and hadn't really thought about it for that reason.

I'll start 45ing civilian fields more often now.

G44 wrote:I will 2nd what MTV said and also add enter the pattern on the 45! Even at my grass strip (Hampton) people enter the pattern in every which way they see fit, radio and non radio. Scares the heck out of me seeing some of the close calls. Just use the 45 and make it easier to see the other airplane. The most dangerous entry's are the crosswind and midfield cross over into the downwind, see it all the time…

G44

I gotta admit I never use the 45, only if it's convenient, which it usually isn't. The way I see it is that it's usually a waste of time and money to fly out of my way to get on a 45 for downwind. Especially since most of the time I'm the only one around. I just enter the pattern whichever way makes the most sense and state my intentions on the radio. With that being said, I only do this if it doesn't interfere with anyone already in the pattern. If I want to make a straight but it conflicts with someone already in the pattern, I'll give way and do a 360 or whatever is needed and let them land first. If the pattern is full with 5 planes? I'll probably go enter on a 45. But why do it if you're the only one around? Or if you can do it safely even if there's 1 or 2 other planes in the pattern. As long as you're being courteous to others already in the pattern and stating your intentions on the radio I don't see anything wrong with non standard patterns.

robw56 wrote:

G44 wrote:I will 2nd what MTV said and also add enter the pattern on the 45! Even at my grass strip (Hampton) people enter the pattern in every which way they see fit, radio and non radio. Scares the heck out of me seeing some of the close calls. Just use the 45 and make it easier to see the other airplane. The most dangerous entry's are the crosswind and midfield cross over into the downwind, see it all the time…

G44

I gotta admit I never use the 45, only if it's convenient, which it usually isn't. The way I see it is that it's usually a waste of time and money to fly out of my way to get on a 45 for downwind. Especially since most of the time I'm the only one around. I just enter the pattern whichever way makes the most sense and state my intentions on the radio. With that being said, I only do this if it doesn't interfere with anyone already in the pattern. If I want to make a straight but it conflicts with someone already in the pattern, I'll give way and do a 360 or whatever is needed and let them land first. If the pattern is full with 5 planes? I'll probably go enter on a 45. But why do it if you're the only one around? Or if you can do it safely even if there's 1 or 2 other planes in the pattern. As long as you're being courteous to others already in the pattern and stating your intentions on the radio I don't see anything wrong with non standard patterns.

I agree with Rob! I can't remember....well outside of training the last time I intentionally entered a 45 at a non-controlled airfield. I know when rob did though

G44 wrote: ..... enter the pattern on the 45! Even at my grass strip (Hampton) people enter the pattern in every which way they see fit, radio and non radio. Scares the heck out of me seeing some of the close calls. Just use the 45 and make it easier to see the other airplane. The most dangerous entry's are the crosswind and midfield cross over into the downwind, see it all the time…

I have to disagree. To cross over high, then make a descending 225 degree turn to a 45 entry-- all while running the before-landing checklist, setting trim mixture etc plus trying to scan for traffic (which may be above or below a tilted wing) seems like a lot of wasted motion besides not being very safe when you analyze it. When approaching the airport from the side away from the pattern, it makes more sense to me to enter on a crosswind, either over midfield or abeam the departure end, then turn right onto downwind. Not only can I see (possibly conflicting) both 45 & downwind traffic, I can take a good look at the runway environment to make sure there's no deer, dead cows, or knuckleheads walking their dog on it.

robw56 wrote:

G44 wrote:I will 2nd what MTV said and also add enter the pattern on the 45! Even at my grass strip (Hampton) people enter the pattern in every which way they see fit, radio and non radio. Scares the heck out of me seeing some of the close calls. Just use the 45 and make it easier to see the other airplane. The most dangerous entry's are the crosswind and midfield cross over into the downwind, see it all the time…

G44

I gotta admit I never use the 45, only if it's convenient, which it usually isn't. The way I see it is that it's usually a waste of time and money to fly out of my way to get on a 45 for downwind. Especially since most of the time I'm the only one around. I just enter the pattern whichever way makes the most sense and state my intentions on the radio. With that being said, I only do this if it doesn't interfere with anyone already in the pattern. If I want to make a straight but it conflicts with someone already in the pattern, I'll give way and do a 360 or whatever is needed and let them land first. If the pattern is full with 5 planes? I'll probably go enter on a 45. But why do it if you're the only one around? Or if you can do it safely even if there's 1 or 2 other planes in the pattern. As long as you're being courteous to others already in the pattern and stating your intentions on the radio I don't see anything wrong with non standard patterns.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, so don't take this a criticism.

First, you need to understand the regulations regarding operations at uncontrolled fields. Essentially, the rule is that you must make all turns to the left unless otherwise specified at that airport (in which case all turns must be to the right).

So, if you're suggesting that it's okay to make turns whichever way is convenient to you, that is both wrong and illegal. And one day, the wrong person will witness this and you'll be talking to the fed.....if you're lucky. If you're not lucky, you'll die in a mid air and maybe take someone else with you who was doing it right.

Now, note that the reg doesn't say you HAVE to turn while in the pattern....just that all turns must be to the left, unless. So, a straight in is legal, as is a direct base entry, as long as the turn was the right direction.

Now, the AIM, on the other hand, suggests in rather strong terms that you fly a "standard traffic pattern" which includes a 45 degree entry, but the AIM is advisory, not regulatory in nature.

So, you can skip traffic patterns altogether if you like, and fly straight ins everywhere you land. Legally.

BUT, if you turn while in the pattern it must be in the correct direction.....even if you THINK you're the only plane around. The regs apply whether there's traffic or not, and remember, the Feds drive unmarked cars

The real kicker, though, is that if you cause another plane to deviate from their standard pattern because you weren't flying a standard pattern, YOU are the one who's going to dance for the FAA, and maybe have to face the survivors and try to explain why you weren't flying safely and professionally.

If you have to pee, fly a straight in, or carry a bottle, old timer.

And, I'll tell you that there are a lot of times when I thought I was the only one around, and found out different.

It takes a couple minutes and a few ounces of gas to fly a standard pattern. It's not that hard to fly like a professional, regardless of what it says on your certificate.

MTV

robw56 wrote:

G44 wrote:I will 2nd what MTV said and also add enter the pattern on the 45! Even at my grass strip (Hampton) people enter the pattern in every which way they see fit, radio and non radio. Scares the heck out of me seeing some of the close calls. Just use the 45 and make it easier to see the other airplane. The most dangerous entry's are the crosswind and midfield cross over into the downwind, see it all the time…

G44

I gotta admit I never use the 45, only if it's convenient, which it usually isn't. The way I see it is that it's usually a waste of time and money to fly out of my way to get on a 45 for downwind. Especially since most of the time I'm the only one around. I just enter the pattern whichever way makes the most sense and state my intentions on the radio. With that being said, I only do this if it doesn't interfere with anyone already in the pattern. If I want to make a straight but it conflicts with someone already in the pattern, I'll give way and do a 360 or whatever is needed and let them land first. If the pattern is full with 5 planes? I'll probably go enter on a 45. But why do it if you're the only one around? Or if you can do it safely even if there's 1 or 2 other planes in the pattern. As long as you're being courteous to others already in the pattern and stating your intentions on the radio I don't see anything wrong with non standard patterns.

Not much traffic in my neck of the woods. PAPM The only time folks fly in the pattern here is when they fly down wind for 31. Otherwise usually straight in for 14 or enter at a 90 for short final. I don't usually do straight in... Did last winter in Willow. Getting dark.. Snow getting thicker by the minute....Ceiling getting close to the tree tops. A tailor craft on skis ahead of me. I'm faster...PA20. Slow to 70.....Caught up with him 1/4 mile out. Can see a what looks white rectangle between the trees. Man he's slow!...we're working together in the radio.. I tell him I'll land long over him if he can't exit the runway.. No way I can do a go around...the snow is...didn't think I could have found the airport again... He taxied off the runway between the second and third runway light.
Mark M.
Platinum Ak.

contactflying wrote:Sprayers have the best situation because we stay low where we can see everyone in the pattern, stay close so we can see everyone on the ground, and give way to everyone so we will always land behind them. Stealth is soo comforting. For everyone else, would not staying calm be helpful. No radio is required so there is no way to know what is in his mind. If you just stay out of his way and don't try to judge him, perhaps he will give you the same courtesy the next time. Or do it like sprayers. Give way to everyone. When I flew pipeline patrol I operated exactly as if I were in a spray plane without a radio. In some fifty thousand landings, one guy saw me and complained about the way I operated.

That's impressive, and I believe it. The ag guys really are the best there is to be around. I saw one of ours even back off the runway behind the hold short line when he accidently wandered out in front of landing traffic, never saw anyone do that before. The jet jockey's coming into non-towered airports are the ones that piss me off. "Gulfstream 1234, 30 mile final, make sure they have his holiness' escalade running and cooled to 67 degrees. Also don't let them open the big hangar door, bring it out through the garage door. We'll need a fresh airpot, 1000 pounds of fuel, pump the crapper, wash the windows, bring us a roasted duck sandwich on a ciabatta bun extra grey poupon and a tonic water with lemon...... 20 mile final- straight in, all you little bug smashers setting off our TCAS better be the hell out of the way when we get there."