As most of you know I am trying to sell my Luscombe. I've have a bunch of brokers call and ask to sell my plane for a $300-400 fee. Anyone have any experience with this? They say they make most of their money off financing and that the only fee I will see is the $300-400.

I don't have any direct experience. just some uninformed thoughts, FWIW:

I'd want to know if they would lock you into an exclusive contract where you could only use that broker, and where you might not even be able to sell it to one of us here via the BCP site.

Having been looking at planes lately, it seems like the brokers have a lot of inventory, and there are a lot more brokers than I would have guessed. Not many of them seem to particularly stand out from the crowd.

I also gather that you shouldn't expect to get any great deals when buying from a broker. Seems like the place you go if you are willing to pay more for something specific.

$300-$400 isn't too bad if they deliver on the services, but barnstormers and word of mouth seem pretty effective too.

On the plus side, title and registration filings, insurance quotes, financing, and even ferry services are offered through some of these outfits, and that could make your life easier.

-DP

Aircraft brokers are the scum of the Earth! ... Until proven otherwise!
Go in with eyes wide open.
I know there are the exceptions, but.....
There are plenty of references, including this forum, to educate yourself prior to purchasing a plane.
I don't know why, but Aviation seems to attract some pretty shady characters,..... beware!
Nuf said!

I talked with several brokers while buying. Type specific brokers, IMO, added the most value. Generalists were no better than going to trade a plane.

dunno whee, but we have good luck and etc with stancil...mark pilkington....

In the early 90's, before the internet became much of a resource and digital pictures were not available at the click of a mouse, I bought a nice 182 from a reputable broker, after buying the 182, then sold a Cherokee through a different broker, both transactions were good experiences, the brokerage fee for selling was not unreasonable. Other experiences I have had with some brokers have not been so good, involving misrepresenting and wasted long distance trips. I am as wary of plane brokers as I am of real estate/car salesmen, there are honest ones and those that aren't, brokers provide a service that is useful, just beware that they are only making money if there is a transaction.

Steve

just beware that they are only making money if there is a transaction.

Really ... Isn't this true in ALL business? Only government jobs can continue without making money via transactions and profit.

Generally an exclusive contract means you can still sell the airplane on your own, but you still owe the broker his fee.
Read the proposals carefully, what are you getting for your $$$? I would expect him/her to do all the paperwork, tell you how much ad space you are getting, and does this mean extra costs to you for phone calls and travel expenses which may be buried on page 32 of your contract with him.
I heard years ago that less than half the brokers out there have ever had a pilots license. Not sure if that is good or bad......but I get a mental picture of a guy who couldn't sell shoes at Sears so he is trying out his luck with airplanes.

SkySteve wrote:

just beware that they are only making money if there is a transaction.

Really ... Isn't this true in ALL business? Only government jobs can continue without making money via transactions and profit.

Skysteve, you are absolutely right, business requires a transaction to profit, I did not mean to hit a nerve (as I obviously did since you are associated with real estate). I was not picking on all real estate sales/transactions, having been on both ends of that more than many, but have seen the dark side. I am pro-business/pro-profit, period, that is what has paid my bills and buys airplanes. What I was getting at, is there are some people out there in sales, that would sell you something just to make the sale (all BCP members in sales are excluded of course), even if it meant misrepresenting the item or service, most of us have been subject to that at one time or the other, those that haven't live a sheltered life.

I did not mean to side track from Whee's original post, just wanted to clarify my statement.

Steve

Think I'll not do the broker thing and just keeping going on Barnstormers etc.

Steve,
No offense taken. I thought I heard you say something you didn't say. No problem. I've been a Real Estate Broker for 23 years too many

Whee, as a group of idaho/wyoming pilots, we have had good success with stancil in placerville. they have sold us as a group 5-7 birds, and sold for us on consignment a nice 210 or 2 plus a twin we had. Mark and Dan have always done us right...they are very well connected and sell birds quite fast. it is skywagons.com ...good luck...!

whee wrote:Think I'll not do the broker thing and just keeping going on Barnstormers etc.

Whee, Give Jeremy a call at his Maule address, he will help you out and maybe give you a clue or two to help.
No one better out there!!
Nothing wasted for the effort.

I am a broker. 12 years now working for OEM's as a sales rep as well as for myself as a pre-owned broker/seller. I hope I can answer some of these questions for you. $300-400 is really cheap, I mean REALLY cheap. Caveat emptor as you will probably get what you pay for. Its true that we often get a referral kick-back for things like financing and insurance, but it's generally no more than a quarter to half percent of the sale price. No one makes their money off of that in the world of little airplanes. And if you have a broker saying that, then he is shorting you or the eventual buyer as he is not working to get the best deal, simply pushing folks to his referral only and not looking for the best value in the sale services (financing, insurance, escrow...etc). A good broker who knows what he is doing and is qualified at what he is doing should/will charge at 5-7% of the sale price. Flat fee brokers are not interested in getting best price, there's no incentive in that for them. Give them a dog in the race and they will fight harder to preserve value TO YOU. In exchange for the fee he should pay for all advertising, any fuel/oil/travel expenses used in the process of demonstrating the aircraft, and hangar/storage if you allow him to be in possession of the aircraft during the course of the listing (and you should). He/she will handle all incoming inquiries as well as broadcast the aircraft through their entire network of industry colleagues and known prospects. He will handle all of the paperwork associated with the sale. Yes, with this all comes exclusivity...if during the term established for the brokerage the aircraft if sold by some other means then you would still owe him his fee. The owner (you) will still be responsible for maintaining your hull and liability insurance, making any payments if the aircraft has a note, and maintaining regulatory airworthiness as well as routine maintenance.

Type specific brokers or the ones who specialize in a particular segment of aviation that your aircraft falls within are always the better choice. They will be far more familiar with the aircraft and have a better handle on your airplane's current marketability. Yes this will come at a premium...the flipside though should be that they can command a premium on the sale...i.e. they will get a better price because they are better at selling your particular kind of aircraft.

Last piece of advice: The contract details between you and the broker is always negotiable. If you see something you don't like don't be afraid to bring it up for review. But listen to the broker's reason for having it in there...the wording might be to the benefit of both of you.

Last last piece of advice: Lots of hacks and bedroom brokers out there. Don't hesitate to shop around or get advice from friends, such as in the posts previous.

Hope that helps.

I have bought and sold with and without brokers. I have been careful in selecting brokers relying on personal references from people I know are trustworthy. I know from selling without a broker that most calls are from brokers searching for a plane to sell with no buyers in hand. But there are a small number who do have buyers. Sorting all this out takes time and energy. That is why good brokers are successful.

Then there is the transaction (cash exchange and title transfer) and control over inspections (travel), negotiation and paper work. What about taxes? A good broker can earn their money like 4-6%. There is a lot more in really marketing the plane, too.

On the other hand I have been lucky doing transactions myself because nobody tried to screw me. And everything worked out. But be cautious.

Finally, the bigger the value the more a broker makes sense for me. If I were selling your plane I would do it myself just to learn the process. AOPA has some helpful resources. Good luck!

mike b wrote:Finally, the bigger the value the more a broker makes sense for me. If I were selling your plane I would do it myself just to learn the process. AOPA has some helpful resources. Good luck!

Wheee,

The last two posts are excellent advice, in my opinion. BUT, this statement I've quoted would seem to me to be a significant factor in your case (and mine). Consider the value of a Luscome, then deduct the fees of a good, reputable broker. You're either not going to get much of a brokerage, or you're not going to recover much from the sale.

To me, a $100 K plus sale may make sense to broker, but less than that? And, selling it yourself can also be a BIG pain in the arse....don't ask how I know that.... .

Good luck and hang in there....remember, all you need is that one buyer who REALLY wants that airplane.

MTV

Whee

About 8-10 years ago I did both. Had it on Barnstormers and I had it with a very good (Small) broker who knew his planes and had a good following.
I interviewed 3 different brokers, had everything in writing before I decided on 1. Had calls from barnstormers but ended up selling it local (within 75 miles) through the broker. I was well prepared and it went very well.

When the price is right you won't need a broker, it will be gone so fast it will make your head spin.

I know professional sellers who claim they can get you more $$$ than you can get on your own. I'm not convinced.

Now if you do not have the ability to sell hookers to sailors who have been at sea for 6 months you need a broker.

Remember it doesn't matter what you think it is worth. It is only worth what someone will pay for it.

Good luck...Rob

jomac wrote:Whee, as a group of idaho/wyoming pilots, we have had good success with stancil in placerville. they have sold us as a group 5-7 birds, and sold for us on consignment a nice 210 or 2 plus a twin we had. Mark and Dan have always done us right...they are very well connected and sell birds quite fast. it is skywagons.com ...good luck...!

Is Stancil still in business? A friend of mine bought a 185 from him days before he got in hot water for selling drug planes for cash.

Whee,

I completely feel your pain. I just spent over a year trying to sell my first Stearman. I originally bought it for $65,000 three years ago. Put $30,000 into getting it into cherry mechanical condition - zero squawks, and replaced the wood propellor with a much more efficient 70 year old fixed pitch McCauley at a cost $8,000. I priced it initially at $79,000 and over the period of a year slowly brought the price down and down and down. During this time I had lots of trade offers, some straight across, some trade and cash. Also received a few low ball cash offers.

Stinson Reliant
Cessna 195
Cessna 195
Cessna 195
Cessna 150 & J3 Cub
J3 Cub & cash
J3 Cub & cash
L4 Cub & cash
L4 Cub & cash
2010 3/4 Ton Ford Diesel Pickup & cash
Fastback Military Humvee
$35,000 cash
$45,000 cash
$50,000 cash

I had one guy who agreed to a price, lined up a ferry pilot, got my bank information, said he wired the deposit and was coming down to pick it up on the weekend, but never wired the money and eventually called to say he changed his mind.

Another guy wanted to buy it for a backup plane for their three-ship Stearman Formation team, was really excited and wanted to move fast and I never heard back.

I had it with a broker friend that has been restoring Stearmans for 25 years, he showed it a lot. I then took over the sale myself, reworded the ads and photos, and dropped the price to $59,000 with the wood prop. As before the trade offers continued. This price did open up the overseas market and a group of three German fighter pilots pooled their money and purchased it a week ago. I put the McCauley prop on Barnstormers and sold it separately.

Bottom line is the aircraft market in the U.S. right now is tanked. Probably a combination of the price of fuel, the weak economy, and the uncertainty about the future of our country. I had to lower the price to a point where the cost of the plane, the cost to crate it, and the cost to ship it was acceptable. I also had a guy from Sweden who wanted it at the same time as the Germans, but they put the deposit in my hand first. I still had no Americans, even at the ridiculously low price.

It is currently a buyers market. Three years ago it was a sellers market - I had to compete with others to get the plane. So I imagine it has nothing to do with you or your plane, it's just the times we live in. I sure hope it works out for you, and quicker rather then slower.