With apologies to those who surf the same places I do, and who might see this cross posted to those groups, I'm seeking input.

Asymmetric Partnerships
I currently have a Citabria 7ECA that has been upgraded to 150hp, and keep it in a hangar. When I got the plane it had been on loan to a flight school and small college that trains pilot/mechanics for Mission Aviation Fellowship work. There were people who had been involved with the care and use of the plane who were sad to see it leave and I thought at the time that I would keep the plane available to some of them.
That really hasn’t happened yet for no reason other than no one pursuing the opportunity. I also recently met with a couple of guys who had been looking into a partnership. They were really looking for something with more seats (they are where I was 20 years ago: kids), but they were a both great guys who would love to have access to a cheap to fly tail dragger. One of them had a great spreadsheet he shared with me which captured the fixed and variable costs in an way that was easy to plug in “what if” situations.

I’ve been a pilot for just over 20 years and spent part of that as a CFII (more on that later). As an instructor doing freelance work I witnessed several aircraft partnerships, leasebacks, flying clubs, etc. It will be no surprise to anyone reading this that the variety of satisfaction (read: soundly operated and equitable) has been all over the place.

I instructed two guys who were in a 4-way partnership in an old (but nice) C172. I taught two of the members to fly and was shocked one day to find that they had never even met each other (I booked lessons back to back and saw them walk right past each other). They admitted that they didn’t even have a booking system, they just drove out to the airport.

I also taught a pilot from a 10 way partnership in a nice C177B fixed gear Cardinal, and ended up giving BFRs to two more of the members including one who had been an owner for years but not been flying.

Those two partnerships both worked out great for the people I flew with mainly because the other owners never did. I can’t explain the behavior of those people, but it is without doubt the reason for satisfaction from the people making full utilization of their opportunity.

My recent thinking includes the following data points:
I don’t want to create a club. Rules, meetings, dues, bbq events. I’m not a hermit but I’m also not exactly social. The big multi-aircraft clubs I’ve been around had heel clicking rule enforcers and frankly a pretty high cash burn rate (over the top mandatory currency requirements come to mind). And I’m talking about my cash burning, not the club’s.

I don’t want to be an equal partner in my own airplane and be voted off the island because I don’t (or do) want to make panel upgrades, etc. For example my plane has heel brakes. It’s going to continue to have heel brakes.

The plane is going to eventually need to be covered and decisions made about the wing spars. When it goes back together I’m going to be on a crusade to save weight. Everything from covering materials and paint to battery (type and location), floor boards and panel equipment will all be obsessed over. The one weight exception I’ll make is to use metal belly skins, which are a huge benefit during annuals.

For the reasons above, a typical friendly link to the AOPA web site for an article about partnerships won’t apply here. Getting back to my “more on that later” remark, I would like to dust off my CFII and use it to teach at least one of my sons to fly as well as make myself available for tail dragger endorsements and private pilot training on a part time basis.

Potential paths as I see them right now:
1. Give up on my unicorn ideal and sell equal shares, but attempt to accept partners with a like mind. Enjoy spending 25% of my current fixed costs and live on.
2. Keep my plane for myself but essentially toss the keys to people I trust, as long as they get their own insurance. I’m pretty sure that asking them to contribute any money would constitute an illegal rental operation, so this option puts wear on my plane with no benefit for me.
3. Keep my plane, get a different insurance policy with named pilots on it, find a few like minds but sell 2-3 minor shares (possibly even $1) with rights to buy them out. Create a legal club with a dictatorship instead of a voting board, and accept money which would partially offset the monthly fixed burn rate (hangar, insurance and annual).
This club would only instruct members so I think it would avoid 100 hour requirements.
4. Screw it, keep my plane to myself and teach my son to fly. Stop speaking to nice people who express interest in my aircraft.

4. Been there. Partnerships seldom work. Hard enough in a marriage but at least there is sex. The sex lets you overlook the little things that piss you off. I am guessing you will not have that in this partnership. Send me a pm with your phone number if you need further explanation.

Tim

It was bad enough having flying jobs where other pilots f*****d with "MY" airplane. I dreaded heading out on days off, knowing that something would be broken or screwed up when I got back. Always.

My own.... No way. It'd be like selling shares in my pickup, RV, or off-road toys to finance a paint job or rebuild the transmission. I don't share with others very well.

That said, over the years I've been in two partnerships involving airplanes. Both niche airplanes/projects (Tcart on floats, and a PA22/20 conversion) with one of my best friends, but they were also our secondary airplanes, and not the daily flyers. Both were absolutely painless, and completely a positive experience.

You asked for input. Mine is #4. Keep it and use it for you.

Gump

GumpAir wrote:.....You asked for input. Mine is #4. Keep it and use it for you. Gump

x2.
Curious why you would consider a partnership,
unless you need the money that selling shares would put in your pocket.
I don't see where you'd get much out of it, other than putting wear & tear on your airplane,
Plus the opportunity or (need) .to have to make an appointment to fly your own airplane.

Of course, I never saw the positive aspects of a leaseback to a fligh school either--unless you were that flight school.
Maybe I just don't have a head for business.

I never had any problems with letting my students use my airplane. I was insured that way, most of the airplanes I owned were ugly, and I trusted pilots I had trained. Mainly, however, I like people more than possessions. In about thirty years doing that, I lost two airplanes. They were insured and I bought nicer ones with the insurance. And I never held it against the student.

I also started a very successful club. I started with a $4500 Colt and when we had 13, the club bought one of my remaining two memberships. I was smart enough to get some pilots, more organized than myself, to run things when I still owned most of the 15 memberships.

From your posts, I think you are a nice guy. Don't worry what others think. We aren't taking any airplanes to wherever we go from here.

A couple of thoughts:

Sitting is really hard on mechanical things, especially airplanes. Most airplanes do not fly nearly enough. If you fly the airplane less than about 100 hrs a year, I would consider the time others fly it up to 100ish hours/yr exercising the airplane rather than wearing it out.

I've been in partnerships with various airplanes and various arrangements. The difference between a good partnership and a bad partnership has always come down to the people involved not any of the details about how the deal is structured.

Having partners in an airplane is great when "our" engine needs overhauled. Having partners in an airplane sucks when you drive out to the airport to fly on a nice day and "your" airplane is gone. Given your use of the airplane and your financial situation, do the pros outweigh the cons for your specific situation?

Bringing partners into an airplane you already own is psychologically different than buying an airplane with partners. Bringing partners into an airplane you already own tends to lead to under-tones of its still "your" airplane; this can be a good or a bad thing.

A couple of things:

Partenrships can go sour quick. For sure they work better when the plane partnered in is everyones' second plane. YMMV.

Renting a plane for someone to fly (and not providing it to them as a 'service' such as you providing a plane and flight instruction all in one; a.k.a. what flight schools do) does not incur the 100 hour inspection requirement. Now, most planes fly less than 100 hours per year...so that's a moot point anyways since the annual will never be more than 100 hours ago.

The rental planes around here are just a guy renting his planes and people using them. They bring their own instructors if they need the plane for training, or they just use the plane as they need if they are already rated. No checkout requirements, no currency requirements. "You break it, you buy it" is the overall policy; so it's advisable the renter has "non-owned" insurance. And the owner does buy liability insurance to protect himself personally; but he does not carry hull coverage so if you bust something you better be able to cover it. Seems to work and his planes are flying 100 to 300 hours a piece each year. I'd say be selective on who you let fly it, make sure they have skin in the game (proper hull value non-owned insurance), and make sure the plane is flown enough per year to keep it all worthwhile.

You'll hear a lot of quarterbacking on this.

Find the right partner and it works out great.
We have a small shareholder with 20% in our plane, and it works great for all involved. The plane gets more use, fixed costs are shared, more hands to help with jobs and inspections when you need it. It's a win-win-win, we both win and so does the plane.

I know a lot of people who had successful partners / shares in planes.

Of course there are horror stories too. But then again, people are prone to exaggerate and bad news stories are more interesting to most humans than good news stories. So both for and against.

I guess it depends a lot on how you're wired, and how much you need the money. Personally I'd rather have less airplane but own all of it. Honestly, I think if I had to take on a partner I'd just quit flying. But that's just how I'm wired...I don't like to share things that are so easy to break and so expensive to fix.

I went into a 4 way partnership of a 172 as my first airplane, it was a very positive experience. I was pretty much the only one to fly it, out of the 130hrs/yr it flew, 120 of it was me. Splitting the fixed and mx costs makes sense for something that that actually gets used to little relatively for how much it sits and it is good to keep it going. I ended up selling my share and buying my own plane, but only because I moved a few hours from where it was based. I sure miss the cheap flying it afforded and have considered selling a few shares of my current plane but decided against it for the same reasons you are hesitant. I like to just go ahead and start a project on it if I wish, and don't want to have to listen to the demands of someone else. Most of all, I like the idea that absolutely whenever I want, I know it will be waiting for me. Although this wasn't a problem with my past partnership, I do a lot more spur of the moment trips and overnight stuff. I would like to get a cub though or something small/light/fun and for something like that it would only make sense to share the costs/usage.

I was partnered in 3 airplanes and vowed never again. Here's the story: 3 of us bought a near new 182, a 1970 in 1975 that had slightly more than 300 hours on it. A year later, one of the partners sold his share to another, and that person bailed on us in another year, so there were just the 2 of us. Then my remaining partner decided "we" needed a faster airplane, and because I couldn't afford it, we restructured the partnership so that he owned 5/6 and I owned 1/6 of a new TR182. Use remained the same, and for the most part, we got along pretty well.

The irritating part at the time was that whenever the airplane needed maintenance, I was the one who had to take care of it--and because it was new and under warranty, that meant flying it to Casper to the selling dealer. As much as I love to fly, that became onerous, because that airplane was a maintenance hog--something was always breaking. But my pard and I still got along pretty well.

Then pard got the hots for an even faster airplane. He arranged for us to test fly a bunch of different high performers, and eventually he settled on a T210. Now the partnership had to really get readjusted, to 1/12 for me and 11/12 for him. You can quickly see what was likely to happen, and it did. Whenever he wanted to use it, I couldn't, even if I had a planned trip. And the airplane was no fun to fly just for the heckuvit--it's a go places airplane. So just local flights were pricey. Fortunately, it was a good airplane, so that I didn't have to take it for maintenance often at all.

The crap hit the fan, though, when I called him because I wanted to take the airplane for a couple of weeks, for a trip to Detroit and then across the pond to northern Ohio. He said he had no problem with that long a trip, but apparently while I was gone, he forgot that I was gone and went out to the airport only to find that the airplane wasn't there. When I got back, he really reamed me for not reminding him that I was taking the airplane, and then he bitched endlessly about a chip in one of the prop blades that happened on my trip, which cost all of $40 to dress out.

I'd had enough. I was going through a dry spell financially anyway, so getting out of the partnership made good sense. When he wanted to know what I wanted for him to buy me out, I told him, "nothing--just get me off the bank note and we'll call it square." It was worth it, to get away from the constant aggravation of him treating me like his lackey when the airplane needed maintenance, like a renter who had to beg to use it, but like it was all his when he wanted to use it.

About that time, I had regular access to a fairly new Mooney 231, which I flew for a couple of years--one of those rare sweet deals where the owner needed me to ferry him back and forth, in return for which I got use of the airplane for just gas.

Then I rented various airplanes for a number of years, from a couple different FBOs. And when times were dry again, I didn't fly for awhile.

Almost 14 years ago, I bought my current airplane--all mine--and I've turned down a number of offers to buy a share of it. It's mine, I do with it what I want, I have it maintained well, I get to add to it what I want without asking someone's permission--and it's available whenever I want to fly it. Other than the occasional wallet-bruising when it needs something expensive, or I've decided to add something expensive, my ownership for these years have been a whole lot happier than any of the time I was in partnership. I don't fly as much as I'd like, about 65 hours a year, so the hourly "rate", considering insurance and hangar and annual maintenance, is pretty high. But it's mine, and that means a lot to me.

Cary

Cary,

Around the time you had the TR182, I was working for Ken Leach, sprayer and Cessna dealer at Center. I taught the young son (or nephew) of the owner of the Monte Vista radio station for his CPL and instrumental in a new R182. The station owner ended up buying it for the kid.

That shiny new airplane made me a nervous wreck. I was worried I wouldn't put the gear down. Turned out the kid was a a squeaky clean checklist user and took care of me that way.

Contact

contactflying wrote:Cary,

Around the time you had the TR182, I was working for Ken Leach, sprayer and Cessna dealer at Center. I taught the young son (or nephew) of the owner of the Monte Vista radio station for his CPL and instrumental in a new R182. The station owner ended up buying it for the kid.

That shiny new airplane made me a nervous wreck. I was worried I wouldn't put the gear down. Turned out the kid was a a squeaky clean checklist user and took care of me that way.

Contact

Fortunately by the time Cessna put folding feet into the 182, they finally got it right--it's pretty sturdy, although the mains are pretty small for any rougher field work. And it can be put down at 140 knots indicated, which is pretty quick. My practice was to always do GUMPS x 3, and other than one time when the indicator switch was out of whack, I never had a problem with forgetting it. On that occasion, I couldn't get a green light even after cycling several times, but the light came on when I set the nose gear down on the runway. I couldn't use the hand pump, because of another anomaly--it's possible to telescope the pump handle in with it not down all the way, but then it jams so that it can't be pulled back out.

Cary

I read this thread a couple years ago and found it helpful, thought I'd top it with an asymmetric plane share structure I've created and been quite happy with.

I bought a 172 that I share with three others. Operating costs are higher than you might expect -- airport hangars are pricy here in the northeast, insurance is high because hull value is high (180HP conversion, all glass cockpit), and I'm pretty aggressive about preventative mx.

The way it works is:
* The three other members pay me a monthly fee that covers their share of hangar, insurance, annual avionics subscriptions, and estimated annual mx.
* They pay a per tach-hr rate that includes gas, oil, engine reserves, and modest avionics + airframe reserves.
* Because there are only four of us, our insurance company names all of us on the owner policy, and has confirmed that the above structure meets allowed operating expense reimbursement (i.e. we are not a commercial operation in their eyes).

I absolutely love this arrangement. I have complete control over who's in the "club." My biggest ongoing costs (hangar space, annuals) are 75% cheaper. If I don't fly for a couple months, someone else effectively pays to fly the plane for me. And because of the financial structure, everybody flies the plane regularly and stays proficient (the monthly fee is much higher than the big clubs; it only makes sense if you fly 5+ hours/mo).

The others love the arrangement, too. They get to fly a much nicer plane than they could find at an FBO, for a less money, and with greater flexibility (folks can go on trips and there are no min hrs/day). They don't have to deal with buying a separate insurance policy. They don't have to make an upfront investment or pay any initiation fee. And they can leave whenever they want, and it's fine by me because I have a waiting list that only gets longer.

There are downsides: I had to personally cover the full cost of the plane and upgrades; there are rare occasions I'd like to fly but someone else is using it; I have to oversee all of the logistics/organization; and if there's an unexpected cost that reserves won't cover, it's on me.

But all in all, I feel I'm getting 98% of the benefit of plane ownership at 25% of the cost. The others are arguably getting an even better deal than I am. I'd encourage this model to anybody with similar goals, and I'm surprised it's not more common.

Move the wheel from the nose to the tail and all kinds of potential chaos and problems arise.

I'm the opposite. I would (and do) pay more to ensure that I have an aircraft that no one else has flown or touched besides me.

Sounds like you're found a nice group of folks that works for you and your 172. Nothing wrong with that. [emoji1360]

Partnerships are in some ways like airplanes, there's no "one size fits all". The flying I enjoy changes with the seasons; wheels, wheel/skis, floats so finding a "like minded" collection of aviators would/could be challenging so I'm flying solo for that reason.

Indeed you have to get lucky when it comes to partnerships. It would appear there are two paths to success:
a) Rigid rules and lots of legal paperwork, and someone with a spine to enforce all the rules
b) Finding a good human and going with a firm hand shake.

I'm the person who started this thread quite a while ago now. I was originally discouraged from taking on a partner because I didn't really need one.

But eventually I came across a pilot at my airport who seemed like a good candidate, and I sold him a very asymmetric fraction of my plane for $1. Using my aircraft cost spreadsheet I calculated a dry rate and he paid in advance for a 30 hour block of time. That money was used to buy and install a Stratus ESGi transponder, enabling the plane to painlessly comply with the 2020 ADS-B mandate.

Our agreement was that the plane would always be parked with full fuel. We used the old dispatch book from when my plane flew on the line for a school and kept track of our hours. I have a big white board in my hangar where we posted every time we added oil, parked the plane with less than full fuel or if there were any other notes of interest.

Even though he didn't have a ton of tail wheel time I was able to add him to my insurance for pretty cheap. I was required to provide him some modest amount of dual instruction with a required number of landings, which worked out well for all of us.

I don't think we ever had a significant schedule conflict. With sufficient advance notice he was able to take the plane to Idaho and other over night trips. It worked out well enough he bought another block of time. He took good care of the plane and our agreement worked great right up to the day I sold the plane (very recently).

Once asked my father how do you know when you have succeeded in life? When you don't need a partner or a banker was his response. Of course we all know there are much better markers of success, family, children, contribution to society. His answer was tongue and cheek. My one airplane partnership with 2 other folks ended in a disaster and loss of friendship. Never again no matter how expensive it is.

Once asked my father how do you know when you have succeeded in life? When you don't need a partner or a banker was his response. Of course we all know there are much better markers of success, family, children, contribution to society. His answer was tongue and cheek. My one airplane partnership with 2 other folks ended in a disaster and loss of friendship. Never again no matter how expensive it is.

I’ve now been in several partnerships, always with very good friends. Handshake deals at most. All but one were taildraggers.

First one was a Cessna 180. I bought half, and we split everything 50/50 - never kept track of usage. When something was done, we split it, no questions. Worked perfectly.

In another, I traded half of my Cub for half of his S1. Same deal, we split everything 50/50 and don’t track usage. Now all of our kids can learn to fly in the Cub and the Pitts gets more use. In fact, the Cub gets WAY more use, which is far better for the airplane. When something needs to be done, whoever happens to be available simply does it. Washes, oil changes, repairs, whatever - doesn’t matter, we just do it and square up if necessary, but we’re usually pretty close by the end of the year.

If it’s beyond a reasonable cost, we’ll discuss it. In one case, one partner wanted a Garmin 660 with an AirGizmo dock, but the rest of us didn’t think it was worth the cost. He decided to pay for it himself. No hard feelings and everyone was happy. Another win/win.

My current Cessna is mine alone, and probably always will be. The ability to go somewhere with zero notice is worth the cost. Might only happen a few times a year, but when we do, all of my complaints about cost disappear. Though having an A&P helps the cost equation tremendously.

I think part of the success was knowing a few things:
Those involved are absolutely competent and stand up people. I’ve never worried about them hurting the plane or damaging something and not owning up to it. Any of the partners can absorb the cost if something does come up, and when something does come up, we just do it. We’re never worried if the other partner will be butt-hurt over replacing vs. fixing that broken widget. And lastly, I think that having partners with similar levels of ‘laidbackness’ is key, or someone is always going to be annoyed.

“Hey, when you flew last, did you remember to document your oil usage, fuel burn, TAS and OAT and upload your flight’s engine monitor data to the cloud?”

“We have an engine monitor?”