This is my first post on this forum and I have to say this site is a wealth of knowledge. I'm so glad I found it.

Anyways, I have been checking a lot of planes for sale and there is one thing I am noticing. A lot of 172s, 182s, mooney m20s, and v35 bonanzas are selling really cheap lately, but with outdated gps.

My question is: Is it a safe bet that the EFB programs for iOS and Android are a good replacement for newer gps systems and are they the reason for not updating airplanes? Also, does anyone else notice this trend or am I crazy?

Jeff

iPads are not a replacement, just a different tool.


Have you priced out a GNS/GTN, CDI/HSI, Transponder and Audio panel upgrade?

It's VERY expensive.

The old ower of my plane spent almost 50 large on the panel, that's why you don't see fancy avionics in every plane.

For a straight VFR plane, for sure just keep her basic, simple and cheap and use a iPad, go spend 200-600 bucks and get a iPad, cellular model for the built in GPS chip, foreflight and call it a day!

It's when you start talking IFR birds, especially single pilot IFR ops where you start NEEDING IFR approved and approach worthy panel mounted stuff, for single pilot ops a auto pilot is also a very good idea and those start out at about 15k installed.

Depending on how nice a 172 182 or bonanza, you could spend as much as you paid for the plane to take a non GPS, non autopilot plane and make it into a real IFR airplane. This is prime reason to buy a plane with 85% the panel you want already installed.

iPads or other hand held devices are NOT suitable replacements for IFR flight instruments nor Navigation.
They simply are not approved for anything other than displaying approach plates.

that said, there are a LOT of IFR pilots out there with iPads velcro'd to their panels.

I think the reason you see so many with antiquated avionics is an upgrade would exceed the value of the aircraft (in a lot of cases). It's just not really cost effective unless you get the plane for a steal and have an extra $15k burning a hole in your pocket.

just my opinions.

Thanks for explanation... Bagarre, do you live in Bowie, MD?

Jeff M wrote:Thanks for explanation... Bagarre, do you live in Bowie, MD?

Up until a year or so ago, I did and kept our 170 a Freeway (W00).
We've since moved to Herndon VA and keep the plane at Leesburg.

You fly out of Annapolis?

I fly out of tipton. Starting some cross country training this week I hope

Tipton is a nice airport but real pilots are made at Freeway.
If the crosswind doesn't get you, the power lines will

If you're looking for some tailwheel time or just some really good stick and rudder time, look up Joe over at Freeway. http://www.aerosportlimited.com/ He has a Decathlon now. Great instructor and good friend.

Thanks! TW training is on my list after i get my ticket

Jeff M wrote:.... I have been checking a lot of planes for sale and there is one thing I am noticing. A lot of 172s, 182s, mooney m20s, and v35 bonanzas are selling really cheap lately, but with outdated gps. My question is: Is it a safe bet that the EFB programs for iOS and Android are a good replacement for newer gps systems and are they the reason for not updating airplanes? ....

Think about this. Why would someone spend big money updating an airplane they will be selling, or have been thinking about selling? They'll save the dough to update their next airplane, or put toward the motor home / golf clubs / etc they may be replacing their airplane with. Doesn't make sense to spend big money upgrading airplane unless you're gonna fly the value out ( aka amortize it ). I know a guy who recently spent $20K for new paint on an airplane he was planning to sell, IMHO he'd have been better off to price the airplane at $20K less and let the new owner decide whether to paint it or not, and if so pick his own paint scheme. Ditto for avionics- not everyone wants the same gear, even if they're gonna be doing the same kind of flying.

"iPads or other hand held devices are NOT suitable replacements for IFR flight instruments nor Navigation.
They simply are not approved for anything other than displaying approach plates."




I don't agree, yes an ipad is not an approved IFR gps. That's where it ends. The high dollar cost of certified aviation equipment doesn't necessarily mean it's better, It just means the company paid the price for the paperwork/hoop jumping and collecting money for their product liability fund. There have been many tests side by side with IFR gps's and ipads. No huge differences in reliability.

An ipad with constantly updated VNC charts and situational awareness is much safer than an old outdated dog eared map getting bounced around the cockpit.

An ipad with an IFR chart and situational awareness is much safer that using old ADF and VOR's


Yes - A auto pilot coupled to a high end certified IFR gps is the safest and best way to go. But who really can afford that or justify that cost with enough use before it is obsolete.

I don't think the real question was about hard IFR use anyway.


The ipad would have my vote as the best thing to come to general aviation in the last decade.

Jeff

Probably Flack time coming my way for this .
Get yer tail wheel time up through solo first.

No thread creep I hope.

Wannabe

I agree with Mark. They're huge SA generating devices.

But not certified for use beyond VFR, unfortunately. IFR gear gets expensive quick, as has already been mentioned. Not likely for someone to drop pretty coin on a glass IFR stack in an old piston single.

Wannabe might have misunderstood your original post, but I can't say he's wrong about getting your training done. There's a pretty awesome world of learning and experiences post-checkride!

Aspen makes retrofitting a glass panel almost bearable if you're building an IFR platform.

There is no doubt that an ipad increases safety and situational awareness when it is working perfectly but, becomes a liability when the IFR pilot begins to rely on it - only to find out that some background app triggered some bug in the IOS and the whole thing locks up.
There are no requirements for the iPad to be fault tolerant. It is MUCH more than a paper chase to be able to prove your app wont have an unhanded exception or reliable integrity checks.

Just talking money, let's say you find a nice, clean older 172 for under $40,000. At that price, it's very likely to have usable working avionics, but nothing new or fancy, maybe even the original pair of navcoms, a working ADF, and a transponder. So you buy it with the idea that it's a pretty good VFR airplane and when you get your IR, for light IFR use, too. And you'd be right.

Since much of the airspace throughout the country will require ADS-B Out for any aircraft in that airspace, you decide you better get with the program. Wham! $8,000 to make it ADS-B Out compliant. Oh sure, you could dodge around the airspace, but in your part of the country, that's a heckuva lot of dodging. And you realize that that dodging is not really easy, with a sectional in your lap and only the OEM avionics in your airplane. So you get a nice iPad Mini, mount it to the yoke, get Foreflight Pro, perhaps a Stratus 2, and again you're golden. All that set you back another AMU (that's $1,000, if you're not yet familiar with AMUs, "aviation monetary units"--that's how we fool ourselves into thinking we're not spending too much on our airplanes).

But meanwhile, the FAA continues to shut down ground-based approaches in favor of GPS approaches. All the NDB approaches are fast disappearing, and the VORs aren't far behind. But they're being replaced rapidly with precision GPS approaches. So you visit your friendly local avionics shop again and ask about an IFR certified GPS, and you gag again--$15,000 installed for a new 650, maybe a couple thou less for a used 430W.

So very quickly, IR in hand, the only way you can fly your $38,000 172 in the system and actually use it regularly for IFR and go to the places you want to go to is to spend an additional $24,000.

That's exactly where I have been, except that I started with a more expensive 172 (justified by a low time airframe and lower time engine) which became even more expensive right away when the engine threw a rod, and I had to land in a field. I spent $30 AMUs, because in addition to the $23,000 engine, I had a bunch of other upgrades done at the time.

So with all that in mind, I'd recommend that you get your certificate first, learn to fly whatever you want to fly, get pretty good at it, and then start thinking about owning. I love my little airplane, and it suits me just fine, but believe me, for most pilots, renting makes much more economic sense than owning.

Cary

This is a situation that the faa is way behind the curve. The adf in my plane is 100 year old technology approved for ifr flight nav. At the last airman's show I bought the garmin gdl 39 and a ipad mini with garmin pilot total package less than a grand, not aproved by the faa. When I was on the slope I compared it to the 430 and 530 we had in the twin otter and there was absolutely no difference in fact it gAve more sa information. Now, if by bad luck, I get into imc, do you think I am going to use the adf, or the garmin/ipad to save my ass? The faa won't even allow it to be used as a paper chart replacement unless you go through a bureaucratic nightmare.

FWIW, AA pilots are all issued iPads. Currently they are used for an Efb but we are expecting approval to use the moving map on the ground very soon. Airborne use of the moving map is currently prohibited but that is being explored as well.

In my personal plane I don't fly ifr but my iPad mini foreflight moving map in a ram mount is my primary vfr navigation tool. For a vfr airplane I don't believe there is anything better. Apple makes the best computers in the world and foreflight makes the best aviation software IMO. I'm OK with the fact that the system is cheap too.

All that said, I would never recommend relying on an iPad as your sole method for anything. I have had issues with overheating which leads to a forced shutdown, several failed lightning cords (official Apple $20 cords not cheap Chinese knock offs), and sometimes they are simply not bright enough to see adequately in certain sun angles.

My SQ2 has a Dynon Skyview and an iPad Mini. Nothing else needed.

If I was redoing the panel in my 185 today (yea I know I just did it a couple of years back) I'd get 2" versions of all the FAA required gauges and stick them over in a corner or along the bottom, then I'd panel mount the same as the SQ2. If I wanted an IFR plane (like I have it set up now), I'd add an GTN 650 or 750 with a Garmin glide slope so I can shoot GPS and VOR approaches and I'd hate having that, just as I do now. Ancient technology compared to Foreflight or Garmin Pilot, prohibitively expensive with VERY expensive annual subscription prices. In fact, as scary as it sounds I've been considering redoing the panel again. I hope I can fight the urge.


And I'll admit I'd be sorely tempted to never update the GTN databases and just use the Dynon Skyview (which is fine for IFR in Experimental Aircraft, another example of the FAA being 30-50 years behind).

It wouldn't surprise me a bit to find Foreflight adding the ability to fly GPS approaches, as a backup device only wink wink. The terrain profile and synthetic vision both Foreflight and Garmin Pilot have could be argued are a major step in that direction.

Mark Y. wrote:"iPads or other hand held devices are NOT suitable replacements for IFR flight instruments nor Navigation.
They simply are not approved for anything other than displaying approach plates."




I don't agree, yes an ipad is not an approved IFR gps. That's where it ends. The high dollar cost of certified aviation equipment doesn't necessarily mean it's better, It just means the company paid the price for the paperwork/hoop jumping and collecting money for their product liability fund. There have been many tests side by side with IFR gps's and ipads. No huge differences in reliability.

An ipad with constantly updated VNC charts and situational awareness is much safer than an old outdated dog eared map getting bounced around the cockpit.

An ipad with an IFR chart and situational awareness is much safer that using old ADF and VOR's


Yes - A auto pilot coupled to a high end certified IFR gps is the safest and best way to go. But who really can afford that or justify that cost with enough use before it is obsolete.

I don't think the real question was about hard IFR use anyway.


The ipad would have my vote as the best thing to come to general aviation in the last decade.

When is the last time you were able to pull up a LPV glideslope on your iPad?

I love mine for flying hard IFR, but I make no illusion that it's not a primary instrument, it was never built for that level of operation and is nothing I'd trust my bacon to shy of some type of freak panel failure on the plane where I had no other option, and that's right up there odds wise with prepping for the zombie attack

I'm not sure what you mean about panel mounted WAAS GPSs and auto pilots becoming obsolete, a GNS shoots an LPV or ILS just the same as a GTN, if your autopilot can fly the GPS and also has vnav, I'm not sure how that's going to become obsolete, user interfaces change to get folks to buy new crap, but the meat and potatoes remain the same.

If you know anyone who's looking to dispose of obsolete garmin GNSs and 330s give me a call, I'll pay him based on weight and promise they won't go into a land fill

Maybe I've had lemons, but my iPads have been way, Way, WAY to glitchy to ever trust my life to them. I'd never consider flying IFR with one as primary, legal or not. I wont even use one as my primary chart while IFR...no paper, no fly.

It's not certified either, but I trust my Garmin 696 10:1 over my ipad and ForeFlight. That Garmin was built to do one thing and one thing only, while the iPad was built to do ten million different things, some of which do not work and play well together.

An iPad with ForeFlight is a great tool, but it's NOT safety-of-life equipment.

Just my experience.

I appreciate all of the insight. I must clarify though that I'm not buying a plane anytime soon. I have the ability to rent fairly cheaply from Tipton when I wanna fly. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the ownership part, because eventually I want to own.