Replacing the lap belts with shoulder harnesses in my Cessna 180.

I had these: http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/catalog/ ... abelts.php in my 170 and was extremely happy with them. Actually tested them when we ended up on the nose due to a single brake brake failure after a committed landing at a short BC strip.

Are the BAS units worth 3.5 times the cost for any reason other than the convenience of being able to lean forward? My primary reason for changing is safety. I have long arms, so the flap handle, trim wheel, and fuel selector are within reach without detensioning the harnesses.

I bought a 182 a year ago that had across the chest harness. I have short arm syndrome so I had to slip off the shoulder harness to reach the flap handle. Everything else was within easy reach. What I did was buy only one BAS unit for pilot side only.

I would not have changed a thing if I could have reached the flap handle. I you have long arm syndrome then buy cheap and spend money on fuel.

Tim

I had the cheepo Spruce fixed harnesses in my first 170. Not bad.
A couple years ago I replaced my aging harnesses in my current 170 with BAS brand. LOVE EM!!
My recommendation to anyone purchasing new is to specify seaplane harnesses which comes without the detents in the male end of the lap belt buckle (PIA). Makes for a much smoother operation.
BAS is first class by the way. I had them even throw in the tail pull handle while they were packaging up my harnesses.
BAS gets my vote since your asking.
Tom

My 185 came with fixed shoulder harnesses when I bought it. I'm 6'5" but unable to drag my knuckles on the ground when I walk (all in good fun) so found that to reach the Johnson bar I had to keep the shoulder harnesses loose, which sort of defeats their purpose. So my first mod was to install BAS with the sea plane buckles.

The bonus of the purchase is I can move my torso around freely, reaching as far for and aft as possible, yet I'll be pinned to the seat in the event of a sudden stop.

The sea plane buckles are great cause they guarantee no part of the belt restricts movement when released, their downside is no one can figure out how to fasten them (maybe it's the people I hang around).

A negative is they don't keep you vertically in the seat in turbulence, so you've really got to cinch the lap belt. Overall I'm glad I installed them.

You have a nice airplane that continues to accrue value each year. Every QUALITY mod you do enhances that value and desirability. Why cheap out? Bite your lip and do it right the first time. A year from now you won't even remember what it cost you and you have a first quality safe harness for BOTH front seat occupants. I've never met anyone who has survived a crash who regreted spending the money for safety gear. Ask MTV if he thinks BAS harnesses are worth the price? Lots of folks owe their lives to BAS. Good belts to help you survive the impact and a good 406 GPS ELT to get help during the "golden hour". I have full BAS in the front as well as shoulder belts in the middle row seats and full cargo barrier nets in my 185. What's you and your families lives worth? My 2cents - your life and mileage may vary.....

What folks are calling the seaplane harness is actually the Utility Buckle Harness, if you are trying to order some. I recommend that style as well if you are going to get a set of BAS. Not only is it supposed to be easier to egress, but it stows more cleanly too for when you are entering and exiting the aircraft under normal conditions.
Also, fully agree about top-shelf customer service. I think I've had five separate transactions with them now. All great.

My two cents...

I considered this question a few years ago. Have a look at the Alpha Aviation inertial reel STC; that's what we installed.

While the 4-point harness is almost certainly safer; I fly on floats and carry a lot of people. I have flown with the 4-point harness and find it a process I don't care to deal with, specifically the straps dangling out of the ceiling.(I know, many creative solutions have been created).

We installed a tab that simulates the one on the lap belt, and installed it up on the door post. Shoulder straps neatly out of the way til needed. Very happy with this mod.

Alpha website


http://www.alphaaviation.com/Cessna100200.html

Having been in the flap handle business for a few years now, I have had the opportunity to speak with literally hundreds of pilots about flap handles, shoulder harnesses, and inertia reels. I also have done a lot of tests and measurements on pilots of all sizes, many of which were done in the170/ 180. I can say a few things with reasonable certainty:

1) Most everyone that has bought the BAS product is happy they bought it. But the same is true for all the fixed harnesses and for that matter my own product as well.

2) A significant number of high time pilots in Alaska and elsewhere have reported that they experienced, or heard first-hand stories, about inertia reel shoulder belts not locking up immediately when they were supposed to, or locking up when the pilot didn't want them to.

3) The inertia reel companies make huge sales claims that absolutely are not completely above boards. While it is technically correct to claim that X number of lives have been saved by using "their" product, but this is in comparison to having no shoulder harness! The same number of lives would have been saved if the aircraft would have been upgraded to a fixed harness.

4) Upgrading your aircraft with an inertia reel unit, OR a fixed harness, is 100X better than no harness. Numerous fatal crashes would have been survivable with ANY shoulder restrain system.

5) Only a very small number of pilots are grossly dis-proportionate to the average human. Meaning that pilots with short arms almost always have short legs, and pilots with long legs usually have long arms, etc. Therefore, a long-armed pilot will have their seat adjusted proportionately further rearward, and a short pilot would have the seat adjusted further forward. Whether it makes immediate sense to a pilot or not, once they adjust the seat position for safe use of the yoke and pedals, almost all pilots will have the same difficulty reaching the fuel selector, trim wheel, or flap handle whether they are tall or short. There are pilots with long arms and short legs, but only a very small percentage. Although it is admittedly on a commercial website with something to sell, here is a full explanation of how this principle works and how to verify it for yourself in your own airplane: http://www.ezflaphandle.com/index.php?o ... 5&Itemid=4

7) Pilots often make the big mistake of running the seat much farther forward than appropriate, in order to see over the nose. In so doing, they are creating a very unsafe situation. One pilot in Alaska, with probably 10 or 20 times the number of hours as I have, demonstrated this to me (as part of making a case against buying a certain flap handle product). With the seat forward, he took great pride in showing me how easy it was to reach the flaps. I asked him to demonstrate "full, free and clear movement of the controls", just like the FAA and your insurance company says you're supposed to have. He could get the yoke back about halfway before it hit his chest. His knees hit the bottom of the panel when I asked him to demonstrate rudder movement.

The bottom line is that if you can genuinely reach the trim wheel and fuel selector while remaining in the correct upright and proper flying position... then why exactly would you need an inertia reel?

Having been to a large number of accident sites, harness can make the difference. I essentially learned to fly using them, and I don't feel very comfortable without them. The time I spent spinning around down the runway in a C2 on fire, shedding landing gear and prop parts the harness locking up made me more of an observer than a projectile in the cockpit. The BAS is a well made unit and the owner is a very helpful guy. Not exactly rocket science to install either. The buckle mechanism is top notch and easy to use, allowing separate release of the shoulder belts from the seat belts or all at once. It is one of the things you can do to make your plane an itsey bit safer, safety, unfortunately don't sell.

Even with them, I still fly with a helmet. I still remember looking at the body of the nerosurgeon with a AA battery imbedded in his forehead, that caused his death. Had he been wearing the harness or a helmet he would still be with us. His head hit the padded glare screen exactly as one of the expended batteries he had thrown up on the glare screen was in the same space. Yeah, its unwise to store trash there as well.

If you have short arms or a bum shoulder the flap extension would be a cool item. Unfortunately the trim wheel extension has yet to be invented.

dogpilot wrote:
Unfortunately the trim wheel extension has yet to be invented.

I did that, both an electric upgrade with a hat switch on the yoke, and a manual extension device for the hand wheel. It's in line for prototyping and testing right after the landing gear conversion.

Look, folks, there ARE significant differences between the BAS harness system and EVERY other harness system available, at least for Cessna aircraft.

The BIG difference is the location and type of the mounting bracket for the shoulder harness. The location is up INSIDE the headliner. What does that mean? It means the belts are fed through a guide, and they never get twisted, a common problem with exposed reels. Secondly, the reels don't gather dust, dog hair, etc, etc, and thus WORK when they're supposed to.

BUT, the REALLY BIG difference in the BAS harnesses and every other harness system is that the BAS attach point is the BACK of the front spar carry through. The BAS harness system attaches to the FRONT side of the front spar carry through, but then it through bolts all the way through that structure, and is reinforced by a backing plate on the aft side of the front spar carry through. In other words, to move those harnesses, you would have to RIP OUT the entire front spar carry through structure. Every other shoulder harness system I've seen attaches their shoulder belts to the forward side of the front spar carry through....and I have seen those pulled out by impact. What's the point of having shoulder harnesses if there is ANY possibility that they'll pull out and plant your face in the instrument panel.

And, the other big difference with the BAS system is that the inertial reel function actually does work. Unlike some other, less expensive systems.

The BAS systems are STCd. Many if not most others are not. Well, you say, the FAA has provided guidance that instructs Inspectors to allow non approved shoulder harness installations in certified airplanes...... Okay, and I'll introduce you to a GOOD, COMPETENT IA who is in litigation with the FAA for having installed a "non PMAd" shoulder harness system in a customer's airplane....just like the guidance says you should. Again, BAS is STC'd....no questions about legalities.

Personally, having used both BAS systems, I MUCH prefer the "joined" system as opposed to the seaplane system., even in seaplanes. Egress is super simple...just unbuckle and roll out of the door. I hated the "seaplane" system because belts were ALWAYS floating around, hanging out doors, etc. Either system is better than any other system.

Take a look at the face of a friend who was using a fixed harness after he decorates the instrument panel with his face. I have been there. EZ Flap or no, most folks tend to loosen fixed harnesses for comfort, NOT necessarily to reach controls.

We've been around this EZ Flap gig before....he's selling a product, folks, buyer beware. A gadget in the cockpit will NEVER replace a quality piece of safety equipment. I'd heartily suggest you buy an EZ Flap gadget, and try it out if that winds your watch.....BUT, buy and install a QUALITY shoulder harness/lap belt system from BAS as well. There is simply NO replacement for that kind of safety equipment.

And, yes, a BAS harness DID save my life....and I don't think Mr. EZ Flap was there to decide whether or not I'd have face planted on the instrument panel without the BAS.

Buy a BAS Harness....what is your life worth? And, by the way, install ONE BAS harness on the pilot's side only????? Are your passenger's lives not worth a few bucks??? I hope you don't actually carry any passengers if you're so cheap that you'd gamble their lives so cheaply.

Rant over....

MTV

I'll deal with this after we comeback from dinner.....

You probably did not get that Mike is a bit partial to BAS. Crawling out a wrecked plane would definitely make you opinionated.

As far as the EZ Flap is concerned, I think it is a good product. Everybody I know that has one likes it. If my belly gets any bigger I may be in the market for one.

I have had both the utility and the non utility versions of the BAS. Both good and not sure if any is better that the other. Not sure why they went to the trouble of getting approval on both.

Tim

Fixed harnesses work fine in a cub. They are not worth a pinch of shit in a non-ag Cessna, even for knuckle-draggers. BAS is the way to go.

The thing I like about my BAS harnesses is that they are non-restrictive for normal reaching movements, not only for the flap handle and trim wheel, but for switches that are on the right side of the panel.

I chose the standard buckles. Although I can't imagine doing it, the "utility" buckle and "rotary" buckle (see the BAS website: http://www.basinc-aeromod.com/) both would allow the seatbelt to be used without the harnesses, negating the benefit of the harnesses. Since I always connect the buckle behind me before exiting the airplane (and encourage my passengers to do likewise), nothing will fall out the door, and I don't have to have the shoulder straps dangling from Velcro tabs above the windshield.

I have no regrets purchasing the BAS harnesses. Yeah, they're a little pricey, but what quality stuff marked "airplane" isn't?

Cary

.
Ahhh, Mike, my loyal opposition, the Salieri to my Mozart, the Yosemite Sam to my Bugs.

Honest, Mr. Admin, I tried to not make my previous post commercial, and went out of my way to not Mussolini-yell at anyone to buy anything in particular, but even a couple of stray milliamps trips one or two specific breakers on this forum. My comments were sincerely more intended to address the harness question, not directly or forcefully selling anything.

mtv wrote:
We've been around this EZ Flap gig before....

Yes we have, more than once. The difference between now and our previous interaction is that now there are nearly 200 in service, with endorsements from a couple of pilots whose resume' you are not physically strong enough to lift. Although definitely not germane to this harness discussion, my original position has been proven right time and time again. So I really no longer feel a need to win you over, but I will defend my position when you call my reasoning, or my results, into question.

mtv wrote:
he's selling a product, folks, buyer beware.

Buyer beware indeed. What warranty or return policy comes with the product you are tirelessly promoting? The 'product' you've been casting aspersions on from Day 1 comes with a 100% money back guarantee, forever. That means someone can can return it after a thousand hours of hard use, and if they're not every bit as happy with it as on the day they bought it, return it unbroken for a full refund. Does BAS offer that guarantee? (I don't know). Does Cessna? (Not a f***in' chance). Do you offer it for your CFI services? (I'll take an educated guess). You damn right caveat emptor....

mtv wrote:
A gadget in the cockpit will NEVER replace a quality piece of safety equipment.

An inertia reel has more moving parts than what you are calling a "gadget". Since you refused to look at, test, or give any fair chance to a particular item you discussed (despite several public opportunities to do so), I'm not sure how you have the ability, or knowledge, or gall, to infer that it's not every bit as high quality of a piece of safety equipment as an inertia reel. On that note, the BAS unit you have so strongly championed.... is that not an automotive quality inertia reel unit, repackaged and approved for aircraft use? That's a sincere question, since I have not examined a BAS unit. I don't know whether it's a custom built clean-sheet inertia reel or an automotive unit adapted with a custom bracket for airplanes?

mtv wrote:
buy and install a QUALITY shoulder harness/lap belt system from BAS as well. There is simply NO replacement for that kind of safety equipment.

BAS absolutely makes a high quality product, which I have not ever, and will not ever, disagree with. However, the BAS has moving parts, which increases the complexity, and provides a POTENTIAL failure point... compared to a fixed harness which has none of those moving parts. Jack Hooker's fixed harness will save as many lives, and prevent as many injuries, as a BAS unit. Period. Does the BAS unit give you the ability to lean forward and pick up the GPS you dropped on the floor under the instrument panel... yes it does.

mtv wrote:
And, yes, a BAS harness DID save my life....and I don't think Mr. EZ Flap was there to decide whether or not I'd have face planted on the instrument panel without the BAS.

No, I was not there, congratulations on having your life saved, because my life wouldn't be near as interesting if you hadn't survived. Mike you and I have been butting heads over this for a long time, and I just love being Spencer Tracy to your Fredric March. But as much fun as it is to parry and re-post like this, the fact remains that having or not having the BAS unit in the airplane actually doesn't have anything to do with the usefulness, or advantages, that I claim for the product I sell. In fact, my sales materials say that the product delivers X, Y, and Z benefits regardless of whether you have an inertia reel, fixed harness, or no harness at all. So I have no axe to grind with BAS, or any other safety harness manufacturer. I wish them great success with their much-loved product, since as Don Corleone said... "especially since (their) interests and mine don't conflict".

Most commercial airplanes have the 5 point harness system which I really like.

The shoulder harness release tab, when pressed, releases the 2 shoulder harnesses while leaving the lap belt secure and locked, and I only do this after reaching cruising altitude in the Boeing.

My Maule however only has a 3 point inertial reel harness which I want to upgrade to 4 point system, and would keep it on during all phases of flight.

With regards to the EZ Flap, I have been using one for the past few months and absolutely love it, especially when landing on very short strips or during gusty wind conditions. I can dump the flaps in an instant without losing sight of the landing surface or surrounding area, and this is a huge safety factor for me.

When I was buying my 182 I got 2 recommendations which Im happy I followed.
Get rid of the fuel caps and buy umbrella style caps, and get BAS inertia reel system.

BAS is super comfortable, you don't feel it, never in your way safer system.
Every time I fly in someone else's plane its the first thing I notice and miss.

I don't know why this whole flap with EZ Flap even came up-- there's more reasons to be able to move around in your seat than just being able to reach the flap handle. I can actually reach the johnson bar flap handle in my C150/150TD without leaning forward, but I installed an inertia reel harness anyway. I need the freedom to lean forward to see around the wing leading edge, look back through the side windows, etc. There's also other options than BAS-- they're great but expensive, and not everyone needs champaign when beer wil do the same thing. I installed a non-stc'd inertia reel arrangement using the FAA shoulder harness policy statement as a basis for approval, which only requires a l;ogbook entry & 337 (no field approval). I believe Maule & Cub Crafters both sell inertia reel harnesses which are less expensive than a BAS.