hotrod150 wrote:there's more reasons to be able to move around in your seat than just being able to reach the flap handle.

Absolutely correct. IMHO that should be the primary decision point for choosing between an inertia reel and a fixed harness, the comfort, or ability to see around the leading edge, or turning around to reach a chart... weighed against the cost savings of a fixed system.

I think the BAS is very nice. But they are expensive. I do not believe the Hooker harnesses I have (fixed) decrease my safety.

I'm tall, and the seat in my 182 only moves forward a couple notches while in flight from all the way back. Reaching the fuel shut off is my only complaint...I have to loosen the shoulder harness slightly to make the reach. The BAS reel is nice for that. As for strength, the attach points for my Hooker install are up to the spar carry through, and perhaps comparable in strength to the floor attach points to the longitudinal bulkheads.

Here is what I HATE about the BAS: I get scrunched up into a little ball in turbulence- every single time, in different aircraft. I don't know if it is because of the orientation of the reel for a taller person like me, or what- but I find myself taking off the shoulder harness in turbulence because it locks my shoulders down so tight it either hurts or restricts my movement in a few moments because it is pulling down on my shoulders like a vice. I imagine with normal height folks, the cinched up BAS units are pulling more backwards than downwards, which might be a tad less uncomfortable.

Overall, I actually prefer the fixed Hooker X harness over the BAS units I've flown with, but I know my passengers generally prefer the BAS for comfort.

Summary: I do not think there is a difference in safety between reel and fixed systems in general. I do believe there is a difference in style- X harness vs over the shoulder, etc. I also think passengers and average height folks might like the reel styles more, while taller folks might find the automatic reels uncomfortable or constraining.

A couple things:

Mr EZ: I noted in my post that folks should try your device if they wish. My point was that your device is NOT a substitute for a QUALITY restraint system, not whether folks should buy your device. Your efforts at salesmanship haven't diminished, though

Inertial reels not needed in a Cub? A good friend of mine was killed in a Cub accident, and the proximate cause of death was his head hitting a portable GPS, mounted on the panel. He was wearing fixed shoulder belts, but they were apparently a little too loose, for whatever reason. It happens...I've caught myself flying with loosened belts in airplanes with fixed belts....

Hooker harnesses attach to the Cessna forward spar carry through, indeed. Most Cessna systems do. The point is MOST of those systems (and I believe the Hooker is one) attach to the forward skin of that carry through, whereas the BAS harness uses through bolts all the way through that structure, and a reinforcement on the back side of it. If you pull that attach point out, you're not likely to survive for other reasons. On the other hand, there are cases in the accident record where those front mounted harnesses pulled out in an accident. This is why BAS designed their attach point so robust.

And, a Hooker system was what got the IA I mentioned earlier crosswise with the FAA. That was installed under the provisions of the FAA policy, but a FSDO guy wrote up the mechanic for not using PMAd parts, or doing this with a logbook entry.

Yes, I know, this should not happen, and the mechanic will win the case, but lawyers don't work cheap, last I heard.

BAS is an STCd system.

Look at their web site and view some of the accident photos they've got there with testimonials.....some of those simply don't look survivable.

MTV

while we are on the subject... looking at shoulder harnesses for my PA-22. Would love the BAS's but they are not STC'd for the PA22 (not that that is much of a hurdle) but most people with PA20s and PA22s seem to have two issues with them. The strap is too long (the mount is not optimal and pretty close to the seat), and there is limited room so the reel won't necessarily fit above the headliner. Curious what others with a shortwing Piper are using and how they like them.

scottf wrote:while we are on the subject... looking at shoulder harnesses for my PA-22. Would love the BAS's but they are not STC'd for the PA22 (not that that is much of a hurdle) but most people with PA20s and PA22s seem to have two issues with them. The strap is too long (the mount is not optimal and pretty close to the seat), and there is limited room so the reel won't necessarily fit above the headliner. Curious what others with a shortwing Piper are using and how they like them.

My dad had the Hooker harness system installed long ago in our Pacer, and to reach the flap handle I keep the left shoulder strap tight and loosen the right. I know this is not ideal, and frequently tighten it in turbulence.

coloradokevbot wrote:My dad had the Hooker harness system installed long ago in our Pacer, and to reach the flap handle I keep the left shoulder strap tight and loosen the right. I know this is not ideal, and frequently tighten it in turbulence.

I had Hooker harnesses in my 170 before I converted to BAS. I always wore them tight. I could pretty easily pop in the flap button with my right toe and it would automatically raise from flaps zero to an angle where I could then reach it. Dumping flaps, I could still reach the button at flaps ten, and then use the nearer portion of the J-bar for lowering them to flaps zero. YMMV.
BAS is still superior, IMO.

mtv wrote:My point was that your device is NOT a substitute for a QUALITY restraint system,

On that we agree 100%. If someone is thinking they need to choose between buying ANY upgrade product, and having (any type of) shoulder harness, and they can not buy both, buy the shoulder harness because that will save lives on a more direct level.

mtv wrote:A good friend of mine was killed in a Cub accident, (snip) was wearing fixed shoulder belts, but they were apparently a little too loose, for whatever reason.

I tried to address this very type of issue on the SC forum a while back, and as you probably remember they ran me out of town. In my very short time being around AK pilots I've heard stories about good people who were lost because of this exact issue.

Dang, EZ, you make me wish I had Flaps!


Shoulder harnesses? I'M A BELIEVER!!
About 15 plus years ago I owned a VERY sweet little '46 champ that I had bought out of McMinnville, Oregon. My eldest son was at a college that had a flight program, and I knew he would want to have it to chase the wind when he got his PPL. It had bothered me flying it that it didn't have a shoulder harness, but my A&P was very reluctant to go through the paperwork dance with the local FSDO to do the install. I had intermittently pushed to have the tabs welded in, but without success. When I knew I would be loaning my Champ to my son, I insisted. He relented, with the stipulation there would be no paperwork (It has changed since then to be MUCH easier) to deal with, and if there were any questions, I had installed the welded in tabs myself. I had wanted to save my son's face just in case he had some sort of landing incident in the tail dragger, thinking nothing more serious was likely.
Long story short, my son almost immediately tested the welding job on the newly installed shoulder harness tabs by searching out a downdraft in the foothills of the Oregon Blue Mountains. The Champ had the original 65 hp engine, and since he was at very low altitude when he entered the downdraft, there was no way those few ponies were going to save his bacon. He hit trees and the ground almost simultaneously. There was enough G forces in the crash to wrinkle the tailcone fabric just behind the cockpit caused by the bending of the tubing (mild steel) induced by the abrupt stop from the weight of the tail of the Champ. Some of you may not know, but a champ tail is very light to pick up and move around, so there was not much weight behind the cockpit to bend that tubing. This testifies to the very significant G forces generated by the crash, to which the occupants (girlfriend along) of the plane were exposed. Of course there was a LOT more damage to the plane than the wrinkling of some fabric behind the cockpit. THANKS to the newly installed SHOULDER HARNESSES, the only "injuries" were a small skin scrape from the shattered plexiglass caused by my son's quick exit to get back and shut off the ELT he knew had to have been activated.The girlfriend had a very small bruise on her elbow afterwords.
The FAA crash investigator was amazed there were no more serious injuries since the Champ was TRASHED. He said without the shoulder harnesses that it would have undoubtedly been a double fatality crash. He said that the TUBE n fabric construction had saved at least very serious injuries compared to corrugated (bent) aluminum construction with shoulder harnesses. He pointed out the wrinkled fabric and other crash induced structural changes that were a testament to the forces generated by the crash. The investigator was an experienced GA crash investigator that impressed me with his ability to "read" the wreckage as to sequence and forces the airplane and its occupants were subject to.

SHOULDER HARNESSES SAVE LIVES!!! This crash is now an insignificant detail in our lives-THANKS TO SHOULDER HARNESSES!!

BAS are worth the money (IMO), but at least get TWO shoulder harness straps to hold you and each of your loved ones in place in the event of a crash. (the single diagonal shoulder strap is NOT adequate!)

Live to love another day.....
lc

On both sets of BAS harnesses I installed on a 185 and a 170B the reels attached to a BAS supplied bracket which was attached to the AFT spar carry through using the Cessna installed nut plate in the bottom of the carry though and by removing two rivets which attach the cabin roof skin to the forward flange of the carry through and replacing them with structural screws.

My vote is for the BAS also. I put a Alpha Systems set in the 170A I am now flying and it works fine except that the strap from the floor to the buckle is a little short with the seat forward, causing the buckle to be on the side of the seat and in the way when reaching for the fuel selector. You have to be careful not to unlatch the belt. I will be putting BAS harnesses in my 180 project.

Tim

Thanks Littlecub for the story of your sons accident, and am glad they survived.

Jim at BAS does not have harnesses approved for a Maule, so I will most likely order from Maule directly.