Got it. Thanks!

I have a scratch-built Patrol which is nearly completed. The Patrol is actually a pretty easy aircraft to build; No complex systems. Bob keeps everything just about a simple as possible and is pretty obsessive about saving weight. The plans are clear enough and free of errors. My only gripe is that Bob could have put in more dimensions. He requires you obtain a lot of dimensions by scaling the drawings. You can definitely build one from scratch, but expect to take awhile to get it finished. I am 3+ yrs into mine, and that's considered fast by most.

When I bought the plans I intended to make dies and hydroform the ribs, but someone beat me to it so I ended up buying them. I also bought the main spar caps, which require a very long brake to fabricate. These would be very easy to make if you know someone which a large enough brake. I had access to a waterjet machine which saved considerable time, but the same jobs could be done with a bandsaw and files. Jigging and skinning is straightforward. I would not spend money on a complete wing kit. On the fuselage I bought a CNC-profiled tubing kit from Cartesian Tube in Canada. They make tubing kits for Pitts and other tube and fabric aircraft. It's a really big time saver and, having done the profiling on the engine mount and flap/aileron hinges using a non-CNC milling machine, in my opinion it's definitely worth the cost increment over the raw tubing. Everything fits nearly perfectly, which helps a lot with the welding, and you get a fully dimensioned Solidworks drawing with it (very handy). On the fuselage you will be doing a LOT of welding. The time it will take to do the fuselage will be greatly influenced by how rapidly you can weld. Bob obviously likes to weld, and many parts that I would have machined are instead weldments.

Fabric work is straightforward except for the fuselage interior (which, unfortunately, you have to do first). Of course the aircraft will fly fine with no interior at all, so you could omit this. The control surfaces are a piece of cake. I used the Stewart System, which I think is easier than Polyfiber and produces results which are at least as good.

I do have one suggestion for you. I assume you have the plans and have looked them over. To get some idea of how much time fabrication will take, I'd suggest you try fabricating the hinge assemblies for flaps and ailerons. This will be inexpensive, and if you can do this you should have no difficulty with the basic fuselage, rudder, horz stab and elevators. Compared to the time you spend on these small parts, the larger stuff will seem to go a lot faster.

Great information s51driver. I'll be checking with Cartesian Tube to see what they have and how much it will cost. Do you have contact info for the person making ribs?

Emory Bored wrote:

hotrod150 wrote:Not throwing rocks at anybody else, but i don't have the stick-to-itness to complete a project of this scope.....

I'm just like you Hotrod. I don't know why either because we both built a lot of buildings in our day. Oh well. Maybe we need a loud mouth fat assed foreman to keep us moving. EB

I need more than that...like a weekly paycheck. Getting a finished airplane after years of work is too pie-in-the-sky to work as motivation for me. I'd just tell the fatass foreman to fuck off....I'm getting pretty independent now that I'm retired.

Whee

Avipro sells the hydroformed ribs. They are actually made in WA or OR (I forget which) and drop shipped. Presumably the fabrication shop owns the dies. I kept the return address from the shipment, but I can't remember where I put it. In any case they are probably going to tell you to order through Avipro. Cartesian tube prices are at http://www.cartesiantube.com/documents/kitpricelist.pdf.

Beautiful Patrol S51. I have plans #156, nose ribs and some spar attach parts done. (long story ). I have received parts from avipro and they are top notch. If I ever get back to it I will certainly consider more parts from Avipro. I'm currently waiting for the FAA to dictate the status of my latest medical, so I may be forced into LSA. (That won't be a Bearhawk LSA, I like the option of flaps). One of my fellow EAA chapter members offers this advice regarding scratchbuilding..."If you can buy it already made, do it. Not everything, but the small time consuming things in order to keep the project rolling..." Sound advice. He's finished several planes including a Wittman tailwind from scratch.

My Dad and i scratch built plans #357. Dad worked very steady 12hrs a day 7days a week for 3 years. I worked on the plane 5days a week at 5hrs and weekends at 12hrs a day for the same 3 years. We built some special equipment to hydroform the ribs a some other stuff but that only added a couple of weeks to the program, but it probably also saved that amount of time in the end. We then spent another 1 1/2 years doing the firewall forward package because we chose to got with the LandRover engine and had to design and build that whole system.
The Bearhawk is a fantastic plane and a great choice but don't go scratch built to save money. Take your time, save up your money and buy a finished one or aquick build kit. Look for something like that kit with lots of extras that was on barnstormers for 27k, that was a smokeing deal. The commitment you need to go scratch built is beyond what most people can fathom.
Just some thoughts - been there,done that, got the T-shirt
KenW

Congratulations S51driver on your completion!!! For a scratch build, 3 years is very fast for sure. That is a great looking Patrol. Please keep us posted as you move through first flight and Phase I testing.

What engine/prop are you using. Do you have any pictures of your panel and interior you can post?

175 magnum wrote: My Dad and i scratch built plans #357. Dad worked very steady 12hrs a day 7days a week for 3 years. I worked on the plane 5days a week at 5hrs and weekends at 12hrs a day for the same 3 years. .....The commitment you need to go scratch built is beyond what most people can fathom...........

Near as I can figure, that's well over 20,000 hours. Whew! "Commitment" doesn't even begin to cover what's needed to do that! My hat's off to you two.

Your right about the hours, i think the build log book shows just over 21,000. The major decision a person has to make is do you want to BUILD or do you want to FLY. Just as we finnished the plane the quick build kits came out and some experienced guys put them together in 1000 hours, most took 1500hrs. Damn near made us cry, timeing is everything.
Pride of building a scratch built versus a quick build, about the same. Cost of building a scratch built versus a quick build if you value your time at $1/hr, about the same. If you really want to save money up your charge out rate to $5/hrs and do the math and present the facts to the wife. Wife's usually have a good understanding of how money can be saved during a sale and can make these kind of decisions quickly. Building can be fun, especially if it is you and your dad, nobody can take those memories away and they are priceless.

I'm old so I've had the time to get three homebuilts flying over the years. I plan on the Patrol to be my last and when it flys I will take my time and rebuild my Champ. I always tell prospective builders that you shouldn't build to fly. If flying is your goal then buy your way in quickly and you will be money ahead. I build because I like to build. I have learned a lot along the way and I can actually get a lot done when I'm in the shop as I have a system of my own for getting tasks acomplished. When you scatch build you can spend a year just making small sub assemblies that eat up a lot of time. In BH building you must be a weldor and it helps to have a small lathe or access to one. When you aren't actually working in the shop and you have idle time in your mind you should be planning your next move, I do this all the time. I work a long haul cargo flying job and my plans ride with me around the world. I spend a lot of time studying them and that helps the details. There will always be naysayers on scratch building and they are correct, they don't have what it takes to see a project through to finish so they tell it like it is, for them. Just like any exp category airplane toy the only way to get a BH is to build it, buy it or something in between. Only each person knows what will work for them.

175 magnum wrote:... Wife's usually have a good understanding of how money can be saved during a sale and can make these kind of decisions quickly.

A very good observation on project support. Always consider the wind at take off and use it to your advantage. Whether the wife and kids can weld or not, you are all building an airplane.

Kevin, you are right about yourself too. For everyone else we should never look at another's finished project and say if he can do it I can do it. Just by having lived different lives, each of us bring different tools to the game before we ever buy our first one and each of us will trade something different for the missing one. For someone missing the time tool, watch out that you don't trade too much for a dollar's worth of your own time. The secret of life is knowing how to weigh what isn't there.

Really appreciate all the info everyone is sharing.

This would not be a full scratch build; I'll build the fuselage and buy most of the other parts from Avipro. Actually, now that I know about the $4k tube kit from that place in Canada I leaning towards using that. Everything is pre cut, shaped and ready to be put together and welded. I thoroughly enjoyed doing the restoration on my Luscombe and I still enjoy working on it so I think I'll enjoy building. However, I'm not interested in doing the small assemblies. For me to stay interested there has to be progress made so sticking to building major assemblies and buying sub assemblies will be the way to go.

I saw that kit on barnstormers for $27k, would have been a great deal but I'm not going to sell my Luscombe in hopes that another deal comes along. Also, I want the repairman's cert for the plane and that is not possible on a kit that someone else started.

I was telling my wife about a guy I talked to that scratch built his BH. Because of his background he was able to put the fuselage together pretty quick. I told her it would take me a lot longer but I could do it. She said, "Well lets go spend a couple weeks in Florida. You go work on the plane, I'll go sit on the beach."

I located a guy that is pretty close that has a flying 180hp Bearhawk and is currently building a Bearhawk LSA. I think I'll try to visit him in the near future.

Also, I want the repairman's cert for the plane and that is not possible on a kit that someone else started.

Whee,

Not true. The kit is an approved 51% kit. As such, if it has not yet been registered, it must only have been 51% built by armature builders, not necessarily just you. Five buddies could build it, but the one who registers it gets the repairman cert.

Cheers,
Woody

You will need to document your contribution with a builders log and show that record to the FAA inspector or DAR. That builders log submitted to them will be inspected just like the aircraft. If you are obviously not the "primary builder" because your contribution was minimal and that is what the log shows, you likely will not get the repairman's certificate.
I got the 3rd degree during questioning from the DAR on establishing washout during wing construction as part of the inspection. Verbal, right now how did you do it? My involvement in the build was demonstrated by my answer. That was backed up by his looking at the builders log of that stage. Photos are good but they don't take the place of the written builders log with at least a daily summation. I had to submit it ahead of time. When he came he was not greatly interested in the photo album I had and said photos can be taken by others while you pose.

My advice is to compare the degree of completion of your possible purchase to what the company's fast build kit looks like. Most fast build kits will stop by 40% and remember, the FAA is looking for 51% of the skills (correction TASKS) needed to complete the AIRFRAME not 51% of the airframe completion. It may surprise you how complete it can be.
Here is Bearhawks Quick Build kit. http://www.bearhawkaircraft.com/Kits/KitsMain.html

Late edit: Compare to AC 20-27G Appendix 8 of the 182 items to determine eligibility of a kit. Check yours against that FAA list to show your remaining involvement and skills demonstrated and you won't have to convince the inspector you should get the repairman certificate since you purchased something less than (or equal to) a qualifying quick build kit to begin with.

From EAA FAQ's http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilder ... icate.html

How to get your Repairman Certificate
You must:

Be a U.S. citizen or an individual of a foreign country who has been admitted for permanent residence in the United States.
Be 18 years of age or older.
Be the "primary builder" of the aircraft.
Be able to demonstrate to the FAA inspector your ability to perform condition inspections and to determine whether the subject aircraft is in a condition for safe operation.
What does "primary builder" mean?
FAA does not define this term. EAA considers the primary builder to the person who's signature is on Form 8130-6, block III attesting to the airworthiness of the amateur built aircraft.


"I am thinking about buying a 95% complete project from another builder, will I be able to get a Repairman Certificate?
The only person who is eligible for the repairman certificate for an amateur-built aircraft is the "primary builder". However, there is no official FAA definition of "primary builder" so it will be up to the FAA inspector who accepts your application to determine if you meet the requirement or not. This is done through an interview process that includes a review of the aircraft construction records. If you are able to convince the FAA inspector that you are indeed the "primary builder" and that you have the requisite skill necessary for determining whether the aircraft is in condition for safe operation, you may be deemed to meet the eligibility requirements and will be issued the repairman certificate. But if the project is substantially completed when you purchase it, you might find it difficult to convince the FAA that you are indeed the "primary builder"."

I asked a few local builders which DAR they used, they all named the same guy. I called him up to ask a bunch of questions. Among them was one about buying a kit someone else started. He stated that the person applying for the repairman's cert had to be there for 51%. A friend helping, no problem, but whoever wanted the cert had to be the key player. When you buy something someone else started you weren't a key player during that portion so you can't count it towards the 51% needed for the repairman's cert. Obviously it still counts towards the 51% needed for an Amateur Built airworthiness certificate.

For example: you buy a kit from someone that is 40% done at the factory and the individual did 20% before you bought it. That leaves you completing 40%. According the the DAR I spoke with you only get credit for 40% and therefore can not get a repairman's certificate for that aircraft. It does qualify for the AB certificate because an amateur builder did more than 51% of the work. In this example they did 60% of the work.

I don't know if this guy was more strict than others or not. I'm just sharing what he told me.

His explanation fits my experience with the DAR. The question here is, has the seller documented that the kit has actually advanced 20% beyond quick build or is this his estimate ?

The second question is if the seller is willing to sell off the completed wings or some other portion separately so that you could finish out a set yourself to document for your own build, that could put you back in the game to finish the rest and get the Repairman Cert. The purchase price would have to be favorable enough for that to work for you.

I am not an expert by any stretch on this but I talked to a DAR in Worshington about this very subject. His opinion was that I could deconstruct certain portions of the build (a Pitts S1S) to attain the 51% as long as the aircraft had not been registered or flown. So as far as welding for instance, I could take a hack saw to the tail feathers and build them over and re-make the upper wing from scratch (say) and he would sign off for the repairman's certificate. He may have seen the world through a different pair of glasses but that was the upshot of his approach.

EB

Lots of info here!

I would spin it this way: fuselage 1/3, wings 1/3, everything else (e.g. QB kit) 1/3
I am 10 months into my kit and will fly the thing in 3 months more. 1200 hours logged to date. Full time job & Mrs to keep happy in the mix too.
So, if you're scratch building another major "part" then I'd say double that time.

Edit: I stand corrected - I have been informed that the build time for a fuselage is more like 2000hours or more, to get to the point the factory kitset arrives in. The wings may be the same?

A quick build kit is up for sale at the moment on the Yahoo group, $28k which is cheap! It's largely untouched. In case anyone was interested.