Anyone else flying L-19's?

I've been practicing 60 degree flap landings. I have developed my own technique but I'm curious if anyone has any tips. I already know not to try a go around with barn doors down

I basically make a very steep approach with a small amount of power to maintain 70mph. I fly it all the way to the ground effect, bump the power up just a little as I flare. Once the plane is level I pull the power and hold off for a complete stall into a three point. Sometimes I'll just pull the power and wheel land it. Both feel pretty comfortable.

Thanks

Seventy mph is pretty fast for approach speed.....depending where you're landing. Sixty with some power should work. I never could see much benefit to that much flap, HUGE drag and you already have that w 40 flaps....

MTV

I agree... 60 degrees is more fun than it is practical, but it is pretty fun.

I worry about getting to 60mph with the barn doors all the way down. When I've gotten to altitude and tested it, the plane seems to lose a lot of elevator authority once you drop your speed that low.

Do you ever land with 60 degrees? Wheel land, 3 point, approach speed?

I found the 60° flap setting to be more ornamental than useful. It puts you in the region of reverse command, where it takes more power to go slower. This is a bad condition, as you can quickly run out of power and not be able to accelerate out of the flap setting without some altitude. So I too played with it and then stayed away. There is the other little gremlin out there at 60°. You are running at close to the flap motor's internal stop. If it get just a tinsey bit over it, due to inertia, it will shear the pin in the 'T' drive, and your stuck with the flap setting. Not safe.

I never found I could appreciably change my landing distance with the 60° setting and the gain was not worth the risk. I felt it was more of a marketing hype for Cessna to the Army to make the sale. Ever notice, it never was used on any other of the taildraggers with almost the same wing? Or even developed further to enhance the backcountry beasts like the 180 or 185? Not one STOL maker ever tried to modify the flap tracks to give a touch more flap, why? Well maybe it is not worth the risk it imposes. There are a lot of aerodynamic things on military aircraft that never make to widespread civilian use. Some, like slats, are around on the heavies and a few weird civvies. Personally, I kind of shy away from slats after watching them kill one of my buddies on an asymmetric roll up. Even the Blue Angles used to wire the A4's slats permanently up.

birddog12yp wrote:I agree... 60 degrees is more fun than it is practical, but it is pretty fun.

I worry about getting to 60mph with the barn doors all the way down. When I've gotten to altitude and tested it, the plane seems to lose a lot of elevator authority once you drop your speed that low.

Do you ever land with 60 degrees? Wheel land, 3 point, approach speed?

I flew a Bird Dog years ago, but only for 40 or 50 hours. I found the full flap setting pretty useless. Forty always gave me everything I needed. THat's pretty much what Cessna decided as well, since that's what my 170B has, and it was the first civilian Cessna with the "para lift" flaps.

The Beaver has the capability of deflecting flaps to pretty close to 60 degrees, as I recall. The admonition in the pilot's operating handbook cautioned that "full flaps are to be used for emergency crash landings only" or words to that effect. I always viewed an admonition from a manufacturer like that to be a pretty good clue. Emergency crash landings only......

MTV

If it get just a tinsey bit over it, due to inertia, it will shear the pin in the 'T' drive, and your stuck with the flap setting.

That's enough to make me shy away from the 60 degree landings. I sheared that pin once before by accident while I was setting the flap position. I happened to be lucky enough to have a few old motors around that I could steal the part from. I've heard it's hard to find that little brass pin and I know it's a huge pain to pull it all apart and fix it. And as you say, there's also the danger of not getting them back out of that position, a bad situation even at altitude.

BTW, anyone know where I might find a 60 degree flap gauge?

I dont have time in a L-19 (only 3 or 4 in this country I think) but I do have a question about going around with the barn doors open.

I have only flown aircraft with 30-35 degrees flap max, the new aquisition will do 52 (once finished)...
Everyone says it's tough going around with everything hanging out in the breeze - but how tough is tough, is it actually too much pitching moment to overpower if you wrestle with the stick?
I realise each aircraft is different, but generally speaking - must you partially retract flaps before applying full power, or is it more of a comfort, safety, and control thing? Going around with 30 was never a big deal.

I have gone around often with 40d of flaps. Thinking at the time, this was the one I was going to actually land, only to see something at the last minute I did not like and then add full power to go around.

It does not seem that big of deal honestly. It is obviously more forward pressure than normal (even more so if your trimmed aft a bit) but once you get your airspeed back you retract them slowly while still applying the forward pressure. Of course this is with manual flaps as well. Seems like when the plane is in trim it feels like about 5-8lbs of forward pressure depending. Not much more than that however.

Heres another one...how about not getting up and out when you think your going to and adding 40 just to get up off the ground...the oh S*#* factor of "here comes that big rock" not that I have done that one much at all honestly, but I have done it.

Any others?

I've found that the 170 will get in the air quicker by accelerating with 0 flaps then pulling 40 once you hit about 35-40mph. After that I hold it in ground effect and immediately start milking back to 20 degrees for climb out. I don't have to accelerate much though, with the sportsman I can climb at 45mph and 20 flaps pretty well, especially at sea level. I've never used this technique anywhere I needed it, just screwing around at my home airport. I think pulling 40 could be usefull to get it in the air to clear a big rock or small obstacle like you said Kevin. As long as you don't have a much taller obstacle to clear afterwards and you have enough room to milk the flaps off and climb out, at least with my plane. I've also started go arounds with 40 flaps several times if I'm checking out a landing spot and don't like what I see. Its not too big of a deal and I just start milking the flaps off once I have full power in. I think its much safer to do it this way then to reduce the flap setting at a low airspeed and start sinking before you can get the power in.

Thanks guys. That is interesting, kinda what I'd hoped to hear.

I was always taught to go around:
1. FULL throttle
2. see 1
3. clear "drag" flap
4. accellerate
5. climb out while reducing flap in stages

I know some guys with big flaps like to go to 50% throttle, remove the drag flaps, then firewall it.

Agree with what Dogpilot said. Rarely go over 40-45 setting. I have used 60 a few times on skis getting into a short one way lake where I wanted the extra drag. I never go to full flap until I'm at 60 on short final, less stress on the motor & T drive than higher airspeed. Never sheared a pin in 17 years I've owned mine or the other one I fly regularly.

Your way behind the power curve & Likley to get introubled. Super steep power off approaches are fun but it takes a few hours practice to get your landing flare perfect without a shot of throttle, but you land short!

For the flap indicator look up Steve N at IBDAWEB . Com message board, he's all over it.

PM me if your interested in VG's for your Dawg.

Couple of quick things. Going around in the birddog with 60 degrees is a no no. I don't even think it's possible. There's so much shadow over the elevator I don't think you would ever get out of ground effect and I'm not going to try it, that's for sure. As for 57 degrees on your plane, hmm, I don't know.

L-19
Steve N restored my throttle quadrants for me. He does a good job and has lots of parts but everyone I know with the 60 degree indicator wants twice it's weight in gold. Last I checked around 600 dollars. Ouch! Jimmy Smeyers in Paris TX is where I get a lot of my other parts, he has hangers full of birddog parts but even he wants an arm and a leg. What are VG's? It's late and I'm probably missing something.

BTW, Here's my birddog

PM sent to ya

There is a cure for the flap gauge, an inclinometer and chart tape. Use the inclinometer to accurately get the flap positions in 10° increments and mark the position on the observer window. It seems half the dogs have these on their windows, works even without power, and only cost a couple of bucks. Is your problem the indicator or the sender? The sender can be re-wired.

From the IBDA, snipped some. If you need the full story from AJ let me know. The service instruction are long & detailed. If its the sender Rheostat thats causing your issue It's just a 50's Buick fuel gauge sender, they are available but not pma'd.

If you choose not to fight the sender yourself, you can pull the rheostat assembly and the flap gauge (including its dropping resistor, located on the back of the gauge) and send the whole lot to Paul Malkasian, In 2001, the basic price to service the system was $180.  Call Malkasian first to confirm he’s still providing the service:  360-681-8486.

The sad story about the gauge is this. I hooked it up wrong and let the smoke out of it by accident

The funny part, was when I turned on the master I thought to myself, HEY, I didn't know that was a lighted instruments. Well, it wasn't, it was just on fire inside. Very upsetting but kind of funny at the same time. Lesson learned.

Battson wrote:I dont have time in a L-19 (only 3 or 4 in this country I think) but I do have a question about going around with the barn doors open.

I have only flown aircraft with 30-35 degrees flap max, the new aquisition will do 52 (once finished)...
Everyone says it's tough going around with everything hanging out in the breeze - but how tough is tough, is it actually too much pitching moment to overpower if you wrestle with the stick?
I realise each aircraft is different, but generally speaking - must you partially retract flaps before applying full power, or is it more of a comfort, safety, and control thing? Going around with 30 was never a big deal.

Battson,

As is the case with many things aviation, there is no hard and fast answer to this question. The answer depends on the airplane, the flaps, ESPECIALLY the density altitude and weight of the airplane, and finally the pilot's skill level.

One of the nasty little tricks I always expose a pilot new to Cessna 185s is a full flap go-around at the last moment from idle power, and set up for a three point landing, including trimmed for the full flap setting and idle power glide. THAT can be a deeply moving religious experience the first time you encounter it. The pitch forces are extreme, and retracting the flaps quickly to 30 may not be real practical due to the force you have to apply to the yoke....it takes both hands unless you're built like the Governator.

But, even in that very powerful airplane, if you set yourself up for a full flap go around at a high all up weight, particularly at a high density altitude, it simply may not work, even if you overcome the pitch forces. That's a lot to ask of any airplane and the airplane is very likely to be unable to maintain altitude.

Now, set my 170 or a Super Cub up with full flaps (Cubs had around 44 or so degrees at the full flap setting) on a go around, and the pitch forces aren't much to deal with, but again at a high weight and/or high DA, the airplane may simply not have the performance to maintain altitude until you retract flaps some.

I make students demonstrate full flap go arounds in everything I fly in. And, most times, its no big deal.....level the airplane, apply full power, stop the descent, allow the airplane to accelerate a bit, THEN start gradually retracting the flaps. THEN start climbing.

But, again, it depends on a LOT of variables, both in the airplane and in the ambient conditions.

MTV

Thanks for that post... I'm thinking about getting a 180 or 185 soon. That's a really good idea train like that.

It is not just light aircraft with full flaps. On Twin Otters, when you use the 37.5° flap setting, you are committed. Lose an engine and you cannot go around on full flaps. It is hard enough on two. Essentially you are committed to a STOL landing in them, as the ailerons are drooping as well and the system is hydraulic and rather slow to come up.

But when you have a nice airport with clearance on all sides, good time to get acquainted with these setting. Learn how the interact with your aircraft and then save them for when you need them. Some techniques are rather like practicing bleeding.

Heck, on the Twin Otter, most of the time we didn't even use flaps on normal runways. That way you where in the pattern at 'normal' aircraft speeds. One evening at Roswell, I reported 10 miles. The tower a time later called to see where I was. It was a bit windy, kind of a fierce 20-35 kt headwind. He asked me what kind of helicopter the Birddog was. I guess he thought I was hovering out there. There where times when the Birddog was the slowest way between two points, but it helps landing.

Battson wrote:....Everyone says it's tough going around with everything hanging out in the breeze - but how tough is tough, is it actually too much pitching moment to overpower if you wrestle with the stick? ........

In my airplane (C150/150TD) as well as in my old C170 ragwing, it isn't so much the drag of the flaps hanging down (esp on the ragwing ) that make a go-around a handful-- it's the extreme nose-up trim setting used to make the airplane fly final approach on-speed. For a go-around I cob in about half throttle, retrim like a big dog (here's where a Piper overhead trim crank wold come in handy), then cob in the rest of the throttle & start cleaning up the flaps.