robw56 wrote:I've found that the 170 will get in the air quicker by accelerating with 0 flaps then pulling 40 once you hit about 35-40mph. (...)

I have a hard time believing that at those speeds you would accelerate at 0 flaps quicker than at 20.
And reaching for 20 to 40 is a lot easier than 0 to 40 without having to take your eyes off the ground in front of you.

I'm with Robw56 on his technique to get a 170B into the air. My take on it is that I have better rudder authority and the tail flys earlier if I accelerate before deploying flaps. This is true for ski flying where the plane accelerates better once the tail ski is out of the snow but is also true of soft ground as well. My SOP for takeoff from firm ground is to start with flaps at 10 so I don't have to duck to reach the flap lever. If I want to be off short, I pull more flaps as soon as the tail flies and the plane comes off the ground at 40 IAS. With Sportsman cuff I can climb at 45 IAS but choose to accelerate and bleed off flaps to 10 before climb unless Vx climb is necessary.

Getting back to the point made by the OP, I've become fond of deploying flaps to 10 to 20 until established on final and then pulling to flaps 40 on short final IF I've made the choice to 3-point the landing and stop short. Wheel landings and/or missed approach are easily accomplished at flaps 20. In the 170B, slips are also easy at flaps 20 but I've been cautioned not to slip at full flaps because of the potential loss of elevator authority. I assume this would apply to the birddog too, particularly at flaps greater than 40.

AKclimber wrote:

robw56 wrote:I've found that the 170 will get in the air quicker by accelerating with 0 flaps then pulling 40 once you hit about 35-40mph. (...)

I have a hard time believing that at those speeds you would accelerate at 0 flaps quicker than at 20.
And reaching for 20 to 40 is a lot easier than 0 to 40 without having to take your eyes off the ground in front of you.

I'm 6'4'' with long arms, pulling the flap handle from the 0* posistion isn't a big deal for me. I have my eyes outside of the airplane the whole time. The 170's excellent visibility over the nose probably helps me with that too. I do have an EZflap handle I need to install at annual which will make this technique easy for anyone.

If my GoPro has enough juice tomorrow I'm going to film my landing at Pine Mountain Lake and share it. Then we can all have a good laugh and critique my technique

But... I think after all the comments I've learned two things.

1) 60 degrees might be fun, but unecessary and might open the doors from some un-fun flap motor repairs
2) Electric flaps in a birddog suck (reference to the comments about being able to get your speed up and then pull in some flaps to jump the plane off the ground.) I've seen a manual flap birddog make the shortest takeoff I've ever seen by doing that and it looked awesome!

Don't be too jealous of manual flaps in the Birddog. If I recall correctly, they are actually hydraulically actuated with a cylinder on the end of the flap bar. Now think about all that can go wrong with that concept.

I can't speak for your dog, but both of mine would not accelerate much over 75-80 its until I pulled the flaps up to 0° (I had an A/G and a D (French model)).

My Birddog (sold it a couple of months ago) and the 185:

As a tricycle driver, I can't comment much on tail draggers--I can fly them, legally too, but I'm not all that good at it. But I can certainly comment about going around with 40 hanging out, as my LRB has 40 manual. I don't know what the "push" poundage is, but since it's a 172 of sorts (P172D), it's not impossible with one hand after adding full power while milking off the flaps with the handle. Most pilots won't have a problem with any 172 on a full flap go around, using only one hand on the yoke.

A go around with full flaps in older Skylanes, however, is a monstrous handful--a 2 hander for me, and although I did many with electric flaps so that all I had to do was flip the switch up after adding full power and get my right hand back on the yoke, I don't know if I could do it with the earlier manual flaps--flew a 58 for many hours, but never had to do a go around with full flaps.

I did have the flap jam at 40 a number of times on the 70 Skylane I partnered in, due to a misadjusted limit switch. The system wasn't damaged, just jammed, and then the circuit breaker would pop. Fortunately it never jammed when I was doing a go around. After the 3rd or 4th time, I got smart and had the limit switch properly adjusted.

I routinely use 40 flaps, but not until I have the field made. I doubt that much more than 40 would make much difference.

Cary

For what it's worth, I teach positive elevator loads for landing the Maules which have 48deg flaps and elevator trim tab on trailing edge.
This lessens the forward push of the yoke in a go around plus eliminates the need to monitor the ASI on final as a change in speed changes yoke load and one can react automatically.
The Maule flap is on a bungee which bottoms at 55mph so in a go around, the flaps will gradually self retract above 55mph lessening pitch change. This also protects the system in case of flap overspeed.
Jeremy

Weird... I routinely landed with flaps sixty in the Pponked Ector bird dog. Why?,Because it was all the flaps the darn thing had....why wouldn't you land useing all the flaps you have?... I did so Because it was huge drag... Huge drag meant I could carry more power, and more power meant a slower stall speed, consequently a slower touch down speed and shorter landing. I guess if you dead stick your short final, then flaps sixty is not for you....

Another weird thing to me, is all the commotion about full flap go arounds.... For the life of me, I have never understood the problem.... Not even in a 1200 hp Pratt engined Ag plane..... When I am set up to land, and about to touch down, the airplane is Almost flying... In the event I need to keep on flying, I just give the airplane what it needs to do so.... This transition shouldn't be anything herky, jerky or earth shattering. Just a smooth transition from 'I was about to land' to 'I am still in the air'...

Having said all that, and being just a mere mortal, I have had 'oh shiv!' moments too... And fed all the coal to a full flapped airplane on more than one occasion.. Yes in the +/- 300 hp bird dog, yes in various C180's, and yes in much higher powered Ag aircraft etc, etc... I have yet to have a 'religious experience' as a result of doing so....

YMMV....
Take care, Rob

Not really certain why is there all the commotion over this...

[/quote]I'm 6'4'' with long arms, pulling the flap handle from the 0* posistion isn't a big deal for me. I have my eyes outside of the airplane the whole time. The 170's excellent visibility over the nose probably helps me with that too. I do have an EZflap handle I need to install at annual which will make this technique easy for anyone.[/quote]

Yep have never had a problem pulling 40 and loosing sight outside. I pull 40 on every landing...I am also 6'2"

Rob wrote:Weird... I routinely landed with flaps sixty in the Pponked Ector bird dog. Why?,Because it was all the flaps the darn thing had....why wouldn't you land useing all the flaps you have?... I did so Because it was huge drag... Huge drag meant I could carry more power, and more power meant a slower stall speed, consequently a slower touch down speed and shorter landing. I guess if you dead stick your short final, then flaps sixty is not for you....

Another weird thing to me, is all the commotion about full flap go arounds.... For the life of me, I have never understood the problem.... Not even in a 1200 hp Pratt engined Ag plane..... When I am set up to land, and about to touch down, the airplane is Almost flying... In the event I need to keep on flying, I just give the airplane what it needs to do so.... This transition shouldn't be anything herky, jerky or earth shattering. Just a smooth transition from 'I was about to land' to 'I am still in the air'...

Having said all that, and being just a mere mortal, I have had 'oh shiv!' moments too... And fed all the coal to a full flapped airplane on more than one occasion.. Yes in the +/- 300 hp bird dog, yes in various C180's, and yes in much higher powered Ag aircraft etc, etc... I have yet to have a 'religious experience' as a result of doing so....

YMMV....
Take care, Rob

Amen!

AKT

Rob wrote: Huge drag meant I could carry more power, and more power meant a slower stall speed, consequently a slower touch down speed and shorter landing. I guess if you dead stick your short final, then flaps sixty is not for you....

Another weird thing to me, is all the commotion about full flap go arounds.... For the life of me, I have never understood the problem.... Not even in a 1200 hp Pratt engined Ag plane..... When I am set up to land, and about to touch down, the airplane is Almost flying... In the event I need to keep on flying, I just give the airplane what it needs to do so.... This transition shouldn't be anything herky, jerky or earth shattering. Just a smooth transition from 'I was about to land' to 'I am still in the air'...

Amen....

Gump