Runway notamed close, lots of new snow, landed anyway. Glad no one got hurt. That could have easily ended much worse!

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/12/23/small-plane-crashes-into-snowplow-at-telluride-airport/#.Vnv6e4gbn-o.mailto

I can understand not knowing about a NOTAM--the NOTAM system is still a lot less than great, and sometimes at small airports, the management doesn't do a good job of posting them where pilots would be able to find them (not suggesting this was the case here). But when you look out the windshield and there's a plow on the runway, that should tell you something! On 9News last night, they said there was 7 miles of visibility, so even if they were making an instrument approach, they should have been able to see well enough.

Cary

The Notam system definitely is cumbersome. Every dispatch we get includes about 5 pages of Notams for just JFK...but we still have to read them. I've actually gone to using apps like Foreflight that make them much easier to digest. I've found smaller airports are much easier since there isn't so much fodder to wade through. Of course they do have to be in the system. I wonder how many people really check notams as often as they should. Before Foreflight, I had a few instances of showing up to a place not knowing about a Notam. Usually on a local flight with a spontaneous change of destination or coming out of the backcountry after being off the grid for several days. It's definitely easier these days with the better tools that we have, but still not perfect.

And, you can bet that a quick call or two on the CTAF would have drawn a response from the plow drivers, who would likely have vacated the runway for the jet to land.

I hope somebody has a serious chat with the FAA over this one. And it shouldn't be the plow driver.

I'll bet that plow driver went home last night and had a "few" toddys after work......damn!!!

MTV

I had a few instances of showing up to a place not knowing about a Notam. Usually on a local flight with a spontaneous change of destination or coming out of the backcountry after being off the grid for several days. It's definitely easier these days with the better tools that we have, but still not perfect.

Very good points... it can happen....

I know I should/could do a better job of checking

That's a rough last day of work as a corporate pilot.

mtv wrote: And, you can bet that a quick call or two on the CTAF would have drawn a response from the plow drivers, who would likely have vacated the runway for the jet to land. .....

You're assuming that the plow had a com radio. Sure seems logical, and only common sense, but that's no guarantee they had one. I've seen lots of ground vehicle ops that were (foolishly) NORDO.
I agree, though, they should have spotted the plow. I wonder if the AWOS has anything about "watch for snow plows on the airport"?
I just checked NOTAMs for KTEX, there's one today for a runway closure 1541-1900Z-- I'm guessing it's for plowing.

Just used Foreflight to check NOTAMs at KTEX, and the runway is closed today. Weather cautions to watch for heavy Santa sleigh wake (lots of silly weather NOTAMs at other airports, too). But the AWOS doesn't say anything about any NOTAMs at all (just listened through Any AWOS, a phone service that I have that allows me to listen to AWOSs anywhere in the US).

Still, look out the window--snow plows aren't VW size.

Cary

Airport was closed and had been for many hours. Runway covered in snow. Feliz Navidad We're comin'

Denver Center would likely relay that info if you cared to check-in, no??

SixTwoLeemer wrote:Airport was closed and had been for many hours. Runway covered in snow. Feliz Navidad We're comin'

Denver Center would likely relay that info if you cared to check-in, no??

No kidding, somewhere in there somebody must have said "yo Jose, you gotty the latest runway notams for TEX?

Well in any case, it seems there may be a guy with a jet type rating who's looking for work tonight.

The famous line from Top Gun: "Son, you screw this up and I'll have you flying cargo planes full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong the rest of your career.".

This guy would be lucky to get that job.

MTV

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote: And, you can bet that a quick call or two on the CTAF would have drawn a response from the plow drivers, who would likely have vacated the runway for the jet to land. .....

You're assuming that the plow had a com radio. Sure seems logical, and only common sense, but that's no guarantee they had one. I've seen lots of ground vehicle ops that were (foolishly) NORDO.
I agree, though, they should have spotted the plow. I wonder if the AWOS has anything about "watch for snow plows on the airport"?
I just checked NOTAMs for KTEX, there's one today for a runway closure 1541-1900Z-- I'm guessing it's for plowing.

There's actually a rule (The FAA ya know) that requires plow trucks to be on frequency when on an active runway.

MTV

But it wasn't active, it was notamed closed.

I'll occasionally hear controllers asking a flight if they have the notams for xyz. I think they do it as their time/mood allows. For those that do, that's great of them to do it. As I think about it, I'd say about a quarter to a third of the time they don't have the Notam being referred to. I've heard a few have to make a last minute destination change because of this.

I just don't get it sometimes, Why the hell do so many people need to blame someone else??
The Pilot Screwed the POOCH!!
Way more than just 1 screwup!!
Not like everyday you should go out and land a Jet on a airport closed becuase of snow!! And you know those Jets, they never fly by and see what the runway conditions are!! Wonder if he checked the windsock?
Is it not the old catch all, no matter what happens unless it is a mechanical, it is the pilots fault!!
The pilot can break every rule in the book in an emergancy and walk away no fault, but when he screws it up bigtime, so many want to blame someone else.
What do you suppose the outcome would have been if he had touched down in 2' of snow with no plowing done??

mtv wrote: There's actually a rule (The FAA ya know) that requires plow trucks to be on frequency when on an active runway. MTV

I think there's a rule about checking NOTAM's before a flight too, but you can see how well that one was followed. I've seen a lot of bonehead behaviour by airport personnel. One local airport near here (KOKH) had a guy sealing cracks in the runway a few years ago-- his little pickup was clear of the runway, but the airport manager not only drove down the runway but also parked his car on it to check on his progress. No NOTAM, no radio, no nothing. About that time, an airplane was doing a long low straight-in and at the last minute realized that *holy shit! there's was a car on the runway!* so he went around. Afterward, the airport manager talked about reporting the pilot for buzzing him.. Unbelievable.

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote: There's actually a rule (The FAA ya know) that requires plow trucks to be on frequency when on an active runway. MTV

I think there's a rule about checking NOTAM's before a flight too, but you can see how well that one was followed. I've seen a lot of bonehead behaviour by airport personnel. One local airport near here (KOKH) had a guy sealing cracks in the runway a few years ago-- his little pickup was clear of the runway, but the airport manager not only drove down the runway but also parked his car on it to check on his progress. No NOTAM, no radio, no nothing. About that time, an airplane was doing a long low straight-in and at the last minute realized that *holy shit! there's was a car on the runway!* so he went around. Afterward, the airport manager talked about reporting the pilot for buzzing him.. Unbelievable.

OK, Bone head move on everyones part there, Long low straight in is kinda asking for it if you prang something on the runway! Parked car on the runway, not smart.

The Runway and Airport in question was Notamed closed so I don't think the FAA really cares if the truck was monitoring the freq. or not?
Nobady has said if the plow had a radio or not??!!

Have had High speed Deer, Moose, Elk, and Bears, Well the Bears were not High speed!! All on the runway without it being Notamed!!
Thought it would have been my fault if I would have hit any of them.

I had a Wrecked amphib on the airport one time and it was notamed closed, A fellow made the decision to land from the other end and turn off about 400' from touchdown and never got any closer than 2000' from me, The authorities really wanted to violate him!! He argued his point and they never did do anything!
They must have been in a good mood that day!

Still goes back to the responcability of the pilot to land or not and to have all available informatuon on the destination airport? If you don't have any information, then I would think it might be prudent to take a look??

Yup, the pilot screwed up, but maybe not as bad as you might think. It could have been as simple as the assumption that he wasn't on an IFR flight plant to a closed runway, followed by nobody hearing his position reports on Unicom and a visual environment that made the plow impossible to see in time to avoid a collision. It's very possible there was no significant lapse of judgement or due diligence, just an unfortunate series of small irregularities and assumptions that caused an accident.

It would be interesting to know if there was any radio traffic from the jet to unicom. Even if the plow didn't have a radio you'd think the fuel monkey or someone would have heard the jet announcing a 5 mile final and thought "really"? But of course everyone misses radio traffic, especially when they don't expect it, and five miles goes by pretty fast in a jet.

I'm no IFR guru, but if I'm on an instrument approach to a runway, I expect it to be operational or for Center to tell me it's not. Apparently it doesn't work that way, and it's possible that was explained to me at some point in my IFR training, but I sure don't remember it. It's not surprising to me that the pilot made an assumption that he wasn't on an IFR flight plan to a closed airport. And seriously, does ANYONE here routinely check Notams before landing? I mean, if you checked them before you took off and that was two hours ago, they're not current anymore, are they?

Straight-in approach? I've never seen a jet do anything else. I don't fly them so I don't know all the ins and outs, but there's nothing unusual about a jet doing a straight-in. I've done them. It's not my habit but sometimes I do them. We all do I reacon.

I'm pretty good about giving position reports, but I've come in and landed without using my radio before. Sometimes I just don't want to talk, and if nobody else is out there telling me there might be a conflict, then sometimes (rarely) I don't. And sometimes (shocking I know) I'm on the wrong frequency. I don't think I'm the only one since you can't monitor Guard for eight minutes without hearing someone use it by mistake.

I often fly without checking Notams. Last summer I was warned not to land at an airport in Montana because they were repaving it. It was closed via Notam but I was coming out of the bush and didn't have access to Notams. It was about the third position report before someone spoke up and told me the runway was closed and to land on the taxi way. I'd like to think I'd have eventually figured out not to land on the runway without being told, but honestly it wasn't that obvious what was going on even after I had been told. And that was in a slow airplane with good light.

I'm not the least bit surprised that the pilots missed seeing the plow on the runway. They're going fast and the light was probably poor, as it usually is in a snow storm, and the plow could have been buried in it's own little cloud of white. Considering the amount of space a jet needs to land, the speed they approach at, and the futility of doing a go-around late in the game, and it doesn't surprise me at all that a plow was not visible in time to avoid a collision.

Now this pilot was flying for hire and has no excuse for short cuts, laziness or stupid mistakes, if indeed he made any. But I think it's interesting to reflect on how little it takes for an incident like this to grow out of otherwise innocuous errors or assumptions.

Or maybe he was smoking meth with a twelve-year-old Bangladeshi prostitute giving him a Cleveland Steamer right before landing...I don't really know.

That plane doesn't show up anywhere except flightaware 4 years ago. Weird.

Ha ! Yep,, the ol' cleavland steamer on approach would be tough to deal with for certain .