I would love to get into backcountry and off airport flying, but being a 150 hour noob and only having access to a 172 that I am sure that they would be none to happy for me to take off road. I am currently doing TW time in a Citabria to improve my stick and rudder skills. My question for everyone on here...how did ya'll break into backcountry/off airport flying?

How did you make the jump from flight school 172s to backcountry flying?

Do I have to own my own airplane to do this type of flying?

Do I look for an experience backcountry instructor like McCall's Flying Seminars?

I know that this is a complex topic that is probably easier asked than accomplished, but would like to here the thoughts of you more experienced folks on here.

Thx in advance,
JB

I think you need only three things.
1. Someone to go with the first few times and get you hooked.
2. An airplane no matter a 150 or super cub to do it in.
3. Friends to meet up with and keep it fun.

Thx PAMR MX.

Please keep the thoughts coming.

And.... Get proficient at flying your airplane, which you can work on in a rental until you buy one of your own.

Get comfortable with slow flight, using different flap settings for take-off and landings, not accepting anything less accurate than a couple feet for touchdown point, and learn to use throttle to adjust glidepath and elevator to control airspeed. Also, learn low ground effect and what you can do in it to slow down and soften landings and shorten take-offs. And learn to fly your airplane when it's heavy.

Again, all stuff you can do now, and when you make the move to dirt you'll find the transition easy.

Thx Gump. Your point on the touchdown point is well taken and the same advice that I got from a really high time cropduster pilot that I had the opportunity to get a few hours with. I have been working on that with every flight. A tough skill set that I am learning in a citabria with no flaps. It has definitely reinforced "flying the wing" and the whole "pitch for airspeed, power for altitude" concept.

I second everything stated thus far.

This site is a HUGE resource. I was studying all this stuff like a crackhead while I was not flying and watched a LOT of videos and studied the best on the web, read all I could, and never stopped thinking about it.

I am also lucky to have made friends with the Patriarch of the "Ohio Bush" and he helped me get hooked even more. Finding people nearby wherever you are with the same interest in aviation will help. Networking here is the best. Once you find friends to meet up with it will only fuel the fire more. But that is huge motivation.

I started out in a rental Cherokee and I started by practicing the techniques Gump is talking about. Not being satisfied with your technique will motivate you to do better, and learn more. You can so some amazing things with a "non typical" backcountry airplane that the majority of the books wont teach and most likely an average instructor won't teach. I had a lot of fun practicing in the Cherokee!!!

I am blessed with a good paying job (at the moment), I saved my money, and I had determination to buy an airplane. I was denied a medical for over a year so I had even more time to save. I never would've guessed I'd end up with my airplane, however. The Savage is a bargain for the performance that they provide. I still want a "real" Supercub but at 2-3 times the price of what I paid for mine, I can't bitch at all. My airplane is a fun toy. Not a working Alaskan airplane so it doesn't have to be something its not and that is where the value is.

I am still a noob. I still have less than 250 hours total time. I left for Idaho from Ohio with less than 100 hours under my belt. I got a lot of shit from people who said I wasn't ready for it. The truth is, I wasn't ready for it in the experience department. But I made (mostly) good decisions and did a lot of reading on everything I could and I survived. Ha. There were only two times I thought I was going to die, but I learned some great lessons. In reality I wasn't even close to dying but I would've argued it at the time! The bottom line is, I would do it again because I love this shit. Once it gets in your blood, it never leaves.

Thanks for taking the time to tell me your story. Before responding, I even googled "Zlin Savage Cubs for sale." That is a great looking plane. I will add that one to my list when I make the plunge. I really like the Cubs, but the missus isn't keen on the idea of sitting behind me with no place for the dog.

I have been pouring over this site for a few months now and learn something new every time.

JB

I'm not remotely close to calling myself a backcountry pilot yet, but one thing that has helped me get more comfortable was practicing on grass and dirt runways. I know that sounds simple, but you wouldn't believe the amount of pilots whom have never seen anything but asphalt. It has made me a better pilot and now I much prefer turf over concrete. This will also get you familiar with landing without markers, lights, etc.... If you have already done this then great. I started my journey this way and am slowly building up to more backcountry type flying. Good luck!

I'm a brushcountry rookie, not much backcountry around the Texas Coast, but I make the best of it and have a lot of fun. I bought a Cub 11 hours into my flight training and spent a lot of time at 2000 feet doing slow flight and stalls, getting a feel for how the plane flies at 40 mph indicated in turns, straight and level, climbing and descending. A local farmer has a huge grass strip that I got permission to use regularly and I started doing touch and go's 3-4 times a week using the techniques from this site and Contact's book. Once I got comfortable with that I started dipping my toes in all sorts of spots. I've got around 200 hrs and 500+ landings in my Cub with most of that being touch and go's off of grass strips or off airport sites, but I still feel like I have a long way to go. It's a blast but I try to stay in a training mindset, still got a lot to learn.

Mojave Flyer,

I'm not a "real" backcountry pilot in the modern sense of the term. When I started there were no big tires, except on Stearmans, and a multitude of mods. But, we went where it suited us. The idea that off airport was foreign, even in a rental, was foreign. Also the small town airports were grass and short. If you wanted to walk to a place to eat, however, that is where you went. And engines, especially high time ones that young people could afford, failed from time to time. So you got that practice.

I expect you have "Safe Maneuvering Flight Techniques." If not, e-mail me at [email protected]. I will attach a copy. If you want the paperback, "Contact Flying," with all the war stories, send me your address and I will send you a signed copy. For Missionary Pilots and Military, they are free.

Jim Dulin

Meybe I better explain what a rental was in those days. $5 per hour got you a 7AC Champ that had no fabric on the bottom of the wing and $10 per hour got you a 150 hp Tri-Pacer whose bungees were so worn out that the metal part stuck up in the seat. Went out to fly it one day and it wouldn't start. The master under the seat was often left on. So I tied the tail down and started to prop it. Mechanic had set the prop wrong for propping on the last annual. On one try the prop stopped just over the nose wheel, about an inch away. Broken motor mount I had missed on pre-flight. Good lesson. I never again believed that a good pre-flight meant that everything was OK.

What are your flying club options around where you live? There are flying clubs around here that allow and encourage backountry ops with the training to go with it. The McCall-type courses are good but I personally wouldn't bother until you have your own plane, and even then I think dollar for dollar you might be better off just burning the money in fuel.

Lots of wisdom here, especially what Gump said.

I don't pretend to be any great backcountry pilot myself, but here's my two cents:

--Treat every landing like it is important. Don't get casual and don't waste opportunities to get better, no matter what you are flying. Landing short of your target is not an option you should tolerate. Make it a point to study the differing effects of temperature, elevation, wind, slope, and load on each flight. Whatever you are flying, know how long it normally takes to lift off (one potato, two potato, three potato) and compare each takeoff to that standard to assess whether everything is still a go.

--Learn in small steps, not big ones. Much better to build your skills and experience incrementally, than throwing yourself too far into the deep end and learning an expensive lesson. There will be time to push yourself in the future, but not until you've sharpened the fundamentals Gump talked about.

--Never underestimate the value of learning in the plane you're in, no matter what it is. I learned in a PA-11 with no flaps, and now fly a PA-12 with no flaps. Slips are a great skill, and they make you a better pilot. Every time I fly something with flaps now, I feel like I'm getting to cheat!

--Leave yourself plenty of margin as you learn. All new skills should be worked on and mastered up high before you ever take them down low. Similarly, make sure you can hit your spot on a long wide runway before you ever start having to hit the spot on a short, narrow, or no-go-around strip.

--Don't be afraid to go around. During every takeoff and every landing, you should be asking yourself whether everything is working right or not. Don't make the mistake of thinking that, just because it usually worked out before, it's going to work out this time. You need to be present in each takeoff and approach, analyzing your feedback in real time, and prepared to abort if you don't like what you're seeing. Airspeed management is beyond critical in backcountry ops. If you're not on-speed on your approach, go around and do it again until you are.

--Do as much vicarious learning as you possibly can. Lessons learned from the mishaps of others are much cheaper than paying the tab yourself.

--Don't be afraid to ask questions, never think you're too good to learn from someone else, and be open to criticism if someone cares enough about you to tell you how you can improve. There are guys on this board who have forgotten more than I'll ever know about flying. Don't be shy about asking for help in this forum, or going to accessible fly-ins even if you don't have a hot rod plane, or walking up and introducing yourself and striking up a conversation.

--Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice!

Either Patrick's stall down approach or my apparent brisk walk rate of closure approach really help with airplanes with no flaps. By controlling speed with elevator and glide angle with power, we can hit the spot every time. Going slow gives us a higher sink rate which we control with power. Side slips are absolutely necessary in crosswind conditions and forward slips are helpful to get rid of too much gravity thrust of altitude. In remote areas without traffic, it is best to get rid of as much altitude as possible before final. The problem with the slip is that, in really tight situations, we have to level the wing over wires and trees and to keep from cartwheeling.

Mojave Flyer wrote:I would love to get into backcountry and off airport flying, but being a 150 hour noob and only having access to a 172 that I am sure that they would be none to happy for me to take off road. I am currently doing TW time in a Citabria to improve my stick and rudder skills. My question for everyone on here...how did ya'll break into backcountry/off airport flying?

How did you make the jump from flight school 172s to backcountry flying?

Do I have to own my own airplane to do this type of flying?

Do I look for an experience backcountry instructor like McCall's Flying Seminars?

I know that this is a complex topic that is probably easier asked than accomplished, but would like to here the thoughts of you more experienced folks on here.

Thx in advance,
JB

JB get your OWN airplane to do this in or at least a partnership . Get a high time pilot to go with your and head for the large Dry lake bed -lots more room for "practice" -take a bunch of orange traffic cones and use them to measure your landing takeoff points Different conditions-wind direction, setups , weights etc..I'd say a minimum of 20-30 hours with everything "perfect > hit the spot your aiming for > slow flight -especially close to the ground, use of all the controls without looking down at instruments -get the sight picture in your mind and butt. Get -read and do the "Mountain Flying Bible -by Sparky Imerson" Density Altitude is more important than new fan dangled paint scheme -know it!
and carry it in your airplane seat pocket. The courses in McCall are good -but expensive I hear. Lots of thing to consider when you want to go off road cruising -learn the airplane ! People here have spent literally Hundreds of thousands of dollars to equip there airplanes to do these things "off the pavement" -from STOL kits to Synthetic vision -to Very over sized tires.

Wow what a great thread. I have been a member of this forum for a while now yet have not had the chance to "Get my bush on" sort to speak. Being relegated to a rental fleet has made it tough. Also being a perpetual Student pilot has not helped either. I do like that many have mentioned to fly what you can and work on consistent landings on a perceived spot at various weights and in various conditions. When i do fly I do work on this, albeit in a 172 on a huge concrete runway. I did notice that having come from Sailplanes and Hangliders, that I can put the plane on the numbers about 90% of the time. I think its a direct correlation to my sailplane experience. The term make every landing count is a huge part of Glider flying, so the skills are very well honed in training. While it may be seem counter productive to take time out of bush practice to fly sailplanes, I do think every pilot can benefit form having some time in sailplanes. Nothing teaches seat of the pants flying more than a Sailplane in my opinion and you learn to feel the plane and how the outside environment influences non motored flight which then can be put to any flying discipline.

I sure hope this year I get some time in Idaho. When I am ready, I will find a mentor and try and learn by tagging along with other pilots.

All excellent responses so far! When I started flying taildraggers and mountains a couple decades ago, a big emphasis was also weather and atmospheric effects on your airplane and getting comfortable at the low end of the knot meter. Learn about density altitudes and reading the wind 200 different ways both in the air and on the ground. In ground effect vs out etc. Learn how to stack the the performance deck in your favor to have a plan and an escape plan. Read and ask lots of questions. Have a love and deep respect for flying things and you are well on your way!

You learn more from your failures than successes, but try to minimize those!

There's no substitute for practice. But you must analyze your weaknesses, and practice to improve those areas. Tighten your own tolerances, every time you fly. Some specifics:
>If when you are just cruising, your normal tolerance is +/- 100' altitude, tighten it to +/- 10'. Can't be done? Sure it can.
>If your normal tolerance is to land not sooner than but not later than 200' past your intended point of touchdown, narrow it to 20'--maybe even to 2'. Yeah, it can be done, not 90% of the time, but 100% of the time (at least to the 20' margin).
>If you regularly land to one side or the other of the centerline, make it on the centerline, every time.
>If you can, find a runway to land on which has no markings, no centerline. If it's paved or grass or gravel, it doesn't matter, but practice on it until you can land in the center, on your intended point of touchdown (or very close), every time.
>Make your final approaches at exactly the right airspeed every time--and use 1.3 Vso for the weight you're carrying at the time, 1.2 Vso "over the fence".
>Practice slow flight with different flap configurations and at different airspeeds, and nail those airspeeds.
>Then make 180 degree turns at those different configurations and airspeeds, using specific bank angles of 30 degrees and 45 degrees, so you'll know how much turn-around room you need.
>Practice go arounds--something most pilots are pretty weak doing. Do that from different heights, including very last minute ones.
>Practice all these things with different loadings--a 4 place airplane loaded to the gills and at aft CG is a whole lot different airplane from one with just the pilot and a forward CG.

All of that can be done with ordinary rentals--172s, PA28 160s, etc. When you're really good at all of those things, reasonable back country airstrips are within your reach, because it doesn't take a super pilot, it only takes one who flies consistently well.

Cary

I expect you have "Safe Maneuvering Flight Techniques." If not, e-mail me at [email protected]. I will attach a copy. If you want the paperback, "Contact Flying," with all the war stories, send me your address and I will send you a signed copy. For Missionary Pilots and Military, they are free.

Sent you an email. I really appreciate the offer.

Thanks for all of the thoughts and comments from everyone. It is all good stuff. Hopefully, I am not the only one on here benefitting from this thread.

JB

If you're thinking off-airport, it's much easier with your own plane.

Unless you can find someone to rent you one, who is basically a "whatever" sort of guy who just wants their plane treated "however you like", and has great insurance

That needs not apply to formed back country airstrips. Then you just need someone who trusts you 100%, and has great insurance