I have seen quite a few PA-20/22s on the market. Them and the 170s are on the top of my list. Albiet, I probably don't know enough to be anywhere close to making a sound decision. I just see a lot of both of them out there at pretty reasonable prices.

There seems to be a lot of parts and mods available for both which makes it attractive to modify and update as money and skills allow.

I am happy that this thread has been helpful to others out there. It sure has some great stuff as I work further on my TW endorsement. I have already made contact with Bart on here, but if anyone else is ever near the Monterey area, would be happy to buy you a beer and pick your brain.

Thx for all the great gouge so far.

JB

Mojave Flyer wrote:thanks for the info. the missus says that she rides in the right seat to serve as the safety officer (and official photographer) to ensure that I don't do anything dumb. she busts my balls whenever the landing is not smooth, not on centerline or I float it too much. watching, judging!

learned from day one to land on centerline, because at the little airport (A09) where I learned there isn't much room on either side of centerline.

Not to bust your balls any more than your wife already does, but A09 is not that narrow, in back country terms. AirNav says it's 50' wide, which makes it wider than your typical SE wingspan, but your tires are only 8 1/2' apart. You should be able to handle a 15' strip, giving you a 3' + margin on either side. If you're still using that strip, try consistently landing smack in the middle between the centerline and the edge--either edge--to get more of a feel for what is narrow. You'll still have a really safe 8' + margin.

You might also practice putting one landing gear right on the centerline--and keeping it there during the roll out.

On that same strip, figure out how long 1000' is. Mark it, so that you can see it out your windshield. Practice landing without extreme braking, until you can land and stop within that space, consistently. Also practice getting the airplane off within that distance, with different loads and different flap configurations.

All this is so that you become the master of the airplane, not the other way around. When the airplane consistently does what you want it to do and you're no longer wondering if it will, you're well on your way to being able to handle a small strip.

Cary

I strive to be as precise as possible on every flight. Awhile back, I was watching one of Patrick Romano's videos and he made the point that before attempting backcountry ops, you should practice at picking a spot and landing there every time. I took that advice and practice that on every flight.

Thanks for the advice Cary. Don't worry, I have been in the Marine Corps for a minute now and have pretty thick skin.

JB

LOL. Thick skins aren't nearly as necessary here compared to some forums. Most here want to be helpful--it's a very friendly place.

Cary

Slowly. Cautiously. What's to gain by pushing it early? Aviation is a life-long learning experience, and I am constantly realizing how much I didn't know just 100 hours back.

You know how much collective metal the guys on this site have bent in the pursuit of off-airport adventure? Well, me neither, not exactly anyway... BUT I have a good little collection of stories related to me by the people I've met over 10 years here. Lots of digging deep into wallets, getting denied insurance coverage, 709 checkrides or violation, as well as all the other baggage like the effect on your psyche and confidence, your wife putting the kibosh on the whole program, and of course your health/safety.

Don't ever let anyone talk you into something you're not comfortable with, especially unknown dudes on the Internet. The years of archived information here though is amazing. Read up, store some knowledge, learn the mistakes to look for before they take you by surprise.

Yup.... Ease into the tough stuff, and after a bit of experience you'll realize what you once thought was impossible is now a piece of cake.

Bottom line, go fly, go burn avgas.

And don't spend your time at your home airport. You get lazy by being familiar with the quirks of a place you know well. Turn base at the big tree, land long to let Joe's hangar block an east crosswind, etc, etc, etc. A new airport, or dirt road, or lakebed.... Makes you figure it all out on the fly and in the air, and you get good at reading microclimates, and you get good at adapting your pattern to fit the terrain and conditions. Which means you get good at making your airplane do what you want it to do, which is the point of all this.

Gump

force yourself cross country - and don't miss an opportunity to land on grass or gravel

soyAnarchisto wrote:force yourself cross country - and don't miss an opportunity to land on grass or gravel

+1
Cross countries are some of the best learning experiences, in my opinion. Not only does it introduce new airport environments but varied field elevations and terrain types. It was a shock to me the first time I went East of the Colorado border how much different the plane performs at low altitude. Really going across the country, you will encounter multiple weather systems and learn what it takes to make a good go/no-go decision.

When my dad and I make our long cross countries, we keep it fun with the goal to avoid all pavement from the time we leave until our final landing back at home!

Most of all, go fly, take your own pace but never stop challenging yourself.

thanks to everyone for all of the thoughts and comments. it has definitely given me some things to think about.

knee deep in TW and instrument training now. seeking continuous improvement.

JB

My number one rule...don't ever do something where you "aren't sure" how it will turn out.

My general commentary...It is wonderful to go cool places. Before you do, you should be able to handle the airplane so well that whatever the constraints of the location are, you've demonstrated to yourself that you can handle much more constraint consistently. Find a long strip. Pick your touch down point. Learn to hit it every time. Measure every landing rollout. Estimate when you pull on the runway how far you will travel along the runway before you are in the air. Fly so many takeoffs and landings that you can estimate it to within 50 feet every time.

If you are looking at a 1200 foot strip, and you have shown yourself that you can (at that altitude...don't forget to account for altitude...) get off in 500 every time, and land in 500 every time, the physical dimensions of the space are not longer part of the stress. At that point it is a question of the softness or roughness of the surface...which you can evaluate if you practice that...

If you want to drill this stuff...there is no such thing as a normal takeoff...except when you are trying to not scare your instructor.

Being pretty green to off airport stuff, the 2 biggest things I strugle with are:
1.)Do I have the performance to get out of there if I land there?
2.)Is someone going to call me in/is it legal to land there?

1.)Do I have the performance to get out of there if I land there?
2.)Is someone going to call me in/is it legal to land there?

I would modify the first to: Do I have the performance and technique to get out of there safely, if I land there?

If the second consideration is a consideration, don't land there. Incidents and accidents, areas I have a lot of experience with, usually involve two or three gut bothering things. Here you have one "disturbance in the force" before you start. That makes it 1/3rd not safe to start with. We need an uncluttered mind when we do fun stuff.

I will say from my experience airspeed is key to all landings. I have about 70 hours total time but I learned to fly off a 1300 foot grass airstrip in a C-170B that was usually on the heavy side with at times full fuel and 3 guys plus about a 50 lb bag of ground school stuff. I was taught the same stuff all these guys are saying... airspeed, consistency. Feel the wing how much lift does it have it in it? is it feeling mushy yet? pick a landing spot and HIT THAT SPOT. I don't land on the center line of big runways often, but rather pick the center of one side (usually the one closest to the taxi ways) and keep the plane centered there. I have flown finals with an extra 10+ knts over the fence (against my will) and it really makes landing much harder to judge where you are going to land and if I may add if you ever will. when I arrive over the fence in most conditions i want to be at 1.1 not too soon not to late. getting down to the last few feet where I start my flare I am now flying in ground effect 1.1 is now left far behind and it is possible (in a C170B) to land without an airspeed showing on the ASI. To do that type of landing takes lots of practice and one has to work up to that level of flying and atleast for me is almost impossible to constantly do without flying at least once a week.

bottom line best performance mod. is avgas and stick time. If I could do it at 16 anyone else should be able too!

@ mojave flyer when I started flying backcountry stuff it was in central Texas. Back then it was far from a hot bed of backcountry activity. I didn't know anyone locally doing it and I struggled greatly to find any resources other than this site and others like it, which are great, but far from actual instruction. I was pretty high time and comfortable dipping my feet in slowly, but it was all off airport and fairly aggressive compared to any recognized strip. Despite having access to all kinds of planes I never would have practiced this stuff in anything but my own plane. That being said if I was in an area that actually had backcountry strips I would have probably been a little more able to justify flying into them with with a friend's plane. To that end I think that having your own plane allows far more freedom to really learn. Candidly I think any plane will work for 95% of stuff out there. If you are going to go true off-airport then a bushy plane is needed.

Secondly finding someone to help show the basics is invaluable (they don't need to be an instructor, just truly competent). I probably could have saved a ton of gas, money, and time if I had found a local instructor who knew the ropes (I was a tailwheel instructor at the time, but this really is different than what I was teaching at the time). Eventually David Beaver out of Houston took time to fly with me for about 30 mins at a towered paved strip and something clicked. I have found this to be true with most people I have since taught. If they have comfort in their plane it doesn't take much to make that connection. If they are still struggling with the basics that is an entirely different story; comfort is a big barometer for safety. I have made some videos and written some articles to try to help people looking to get started. They are in the features part of this site, but they are far from finding someone to show you the ropes, and there are many ways to skin a cat. If time permits I might end up doing some instruction in a super stol out of Monterey, perhaps we should stay in touch.

Feel free to reach out. I love to talk shop and I sit in a car nearly 35 hours a week so I have plenty of time to chat. I don't check the PMs here that often, just because I am almost never in front of a computer so email or phone is the best. My contact info is at http://www.backcountryaviation.com

The best advise I can offer is go with your gut feeling.When I started, there were no instructors who had anything positive to say about mountain flying and landing in back country areas. I heard nothing less than " no, no you cant do that" No that lake is too small to land in". "oh that strip is too short, you'll never get in there" Well I learned a lot by just being observant, and being obstinate. I find that the best back county pilots have an attitude problem, They don't listen to nervous nellies, who are self proclaimed experts with little experience.
Start slow and know thy limitations. My favorite pastimes are just making approaches on seemingly impossible places to land, with no actual intention of ever landing. Funny thing is , do this enough, and you will eventually plant it in at some of those places. When ground bound in walking the back country , be cognizant of areas that could be landable. visualize making an approach, observe the obstacles. Pay attention to the terrain and try to imagine what that rock looks like at 500'..If it looks rough up high, it is, no doubt! BUT.. if it looks short, it's probably a lot bigger than you think. Let your skill grow at its own pace and fly lots. I'll say that again.. fly lots!! Listen to your gut. It will tell you when the time is right to make the commitment to put her in. As they say, patients is a virtue.
.

Speaking of looking shorter or longer than it really is.....
if you can overfly the landing site, you can get a pretty good idea of the length.
At 60 knots (70 mph) you're travelling 100 feet per second.

hotrod180 wrote:Speaking of looking shorter or longer than it really is.....
if you can overfly the landing site, you can get a pretty good idea of the length.
At 60 knots (70 mph) you're travelling 100 feet per second.

I'm always amazed at how often pilots, both experienced and newbies, have no idea what the length of the strip is, how far out they are on approach, etc. Their "sight gauge" is way off. Sometimes I think it's because they look at the GPS's distance measurement to the airport, without regard to where the database says the airport is, but sometimes it just looks like a WAG, and a poor one at that.

So this is a good rule of thumb to use, and the only issue is, can you fly level consistently at 70 mph/60 knots? Most can with a little practice. Oops--there's that P word again: practice!

Cary

Mojave Flyer wrote:I have seen quite a few PA-20/22s on the market. Them and the 170s are on the top of my list. Albiet, I probably don't know enough to be anywhere close to making a sound decision. I just see a lot of both of them out there at pretty reasonable prices.

There seems to be a lot of parts and mods available for both which makes it attractive to modify and update as money and skills allow.

I am happy that this thread has been helpful to others out there. It sure has some great stuff as I work further on my TW endorsement. I have already made contact with Bart on here, but if anyone else is ever near the Monterey area, would be happy to buy you a beer and pick your brain.

Thx for all the great gouge so far.

JB

If you ever want to go out in a 170, just let me know. I'm not too far away up in Rio Vista. I can show you a lot of cool dirt strips and off airport sites around here. The 170 is a great first airplane and a cheaper alternative to some of the higher horsepower backcountry type airplanes out there. Learn to fly it right and it will take you just about anywhere you need to go, and plenty you probably shouldn't anyways

Welcome aboard Mojave Flyer! I was you in 2008 when joining supercub.org asking about everything "backcountry" not just flying but, living in the backcountry. I was shopping for a Piper Cub (or reasonable facsimile) at the time.

For me when I fly off airport, I try to minimize the risk to myself and others. Playing "Russian Roulette" is not my idea of a good time. I have found some instructors to be friends and some instructors to be serious enemies. Choose your "instructors" carefully. It took me several years to find legitimate help flying. Patience is a virtue, I never realized that until I got old. Also, some mechanics are really dangerous too.

Recently (3) friends died here (Oregon) in experimental aircraft, (1) friend ditch a Caravan (passenger died) and the list goes on... Most of the time it was no surprise and it could of been me.

Right now I have about 300 hours trying to be a rough tough backcountry pilot dude. 99% has been mind blowing fun! A few bad decisions were made and everyday I learn something new.

There has been a lot of good advice on this thread so far. That said, perhaps the best and safest way to "expand your envelope" in flying is to fly with someone else, either in their airplane, or preferably with them in your airplane.

Now, you need to be careful with this, and make sure that the person you're flying with actually knows what they're doing.....there are poseurs out there, in case you hadn't noticed.

So, visit with folks who are doing this kind of flying. Find some schools/instructors that are familiar with your aircraft type and mission, and go fly with them.

One of the best things I had in my flying career was taking check rides at least twice a year, and many of those check airmen were highly experienced off airport pilots themselves, and willing to help me expand my knowledge and skills. .

Expanding your knowledge/skills by yourself is fine, just do it incrementally....a wee bit at a time. Any time you feel like you're about to make a big leap, you may want to back off and give that some thought.

But, if you can find someone who knows what he or she is doing, take advantage of that....just be careful who you trust to fly with.

MTV