Maybe add hand propping instruction to future fly-ins if people are interested. I've never done it and it was never covered in any of my training. I think I could do it if I was stranded but sure would be nice to get a little practice in or at least some hands on instruction before hand.

mtv wrote:......
7) Mixture set to idle cutoff, after you've primed the engine. If it tries to run off, it won't get far. As soon as it catches, push the mixture to full rich. Don't try this from out front....running past that spinning meat cleaver can be a career ending experience. Another argument for propping from behind.....

A little different deal propping a Cub than a C180 or similar. You can leave a Cub door (or for that matter a C182 jump door) open for quick access to the throttle etc-- access is not so quick or easy with other door styles. Esp with some prop wash helping hold the door shut.
I've tried to start engines with the mix pulled out- never ran long for me to get into the cabin and push it in before it woulda died. I would instead recommend propping with the fuel selector turned to "off". That gives enough fuel to start and run for a few seconds, but should shut her down before there's time enough to get too far into trouble if it gets away.
I'm not sold on propping from behind, esp if the door is not of the fold-down or fold-up variety. If the engine roars to life and the airplane starts rolling, the wing strut (or wing itself, of a low wing airplane) and main wheels are trying to push you forward -- right into the prop. I'm much more comfortable propping from in front, stepping back as part of the follow-through from the downward swing of the prop.

I always propped my T- Craft from behind, and it had swing doors. I don't recall it being much of an issue, and I for sure felt more in control then out in front. I may have reached the throttle through the open window, don't recall exactly, just that it was a pretty non eventful thing. Worse case scenario would be getting run over and watching as the plane takes off...can't see it pushing you into the prop. All this hand propping talk sure makes me appreciate the instant ON of the Rotax 912, and my electrical system!

mtv wrote:Sigh......

I get tired of hearing all the internet experts pontificating about how you always need a "qualified pilot" at the controls while hand propping, and/or the tail needs to be tied down, with some sort of magic knot......etc.


MTV

Not sure if this was directed at my own comments ("I've hand-propped a number of different airplanes over the years, but always with an experienced pilot at the controls." "He tied the tail to the corner of the hangar with some sort of slip knot, which he could untie from the cockpit."), but if so, I just haven't had the need to hand-prop by myself, that when I have hand-propped, I always had a qualified person at the controls; and I was just commenting on another pilot's method of doing it by himself. I've certainly seen others hand-prop without help. At one of my regular fly-ins, a frequent attender comes there in his Ryan PT 19, which he hand-props without help (sounds a lot like a John Deere tractor). A tenant at GXY hand props his Aeronca without help--I usually see him at the gas pumps. Neither of these guys ties their airplanes to anything, but the Aeronca pilot does chock his (every time? I don't know). As for propping from behind, I've never tried it, but I don't know why it wouldn't work. I also haven't tried hand-propping with the mixture-off, but I don't think my airplane's engine would run long enough for me to get back in and push it in--hate to admit it, but I have tried to start it with the starter without pushing in the mixture--it started but didn't run more than a second or two. I agree that every pilot should learn how to hand-prop an airplane, but I admit I'm happy not to have to do it regularly.

Cary

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote:......
7) Mixture set to idle cutoff, after you've primed the engine. If it tries to run off, it won't get far. As soon as it catches, push the mixture to full rich. Don't try this from out front....running past that spinning meat cleaver can be a career ending experience. Another argument for propping from behind.....

A little different deal propping a Cub than a C180 or similar. You can leave a Cub door (or for that matter) a C182 jump door open for quick access to the throttle etc-- access is not so quicl or easy with other door styles. Esp with some prop wash helping hold the door shut.
I've tried to start engines with the mix pulled out- never ran long for me to get into the cabin and push it in before it woulda died.
I'm not sold on propping from behind, esp if the door is not of the fold-down or fold-up variety. If the engine roars to life and the airplane starts rolling, the wing strut (or wing itself, of a low wing airplane) and main wheels are trying to push you forward -- right into the prop. I'm much more comfortable propping from in front, stepping back as part of the follow-through from the downward swing of the prop.

Try turning the fuel selector off instead of mixture to idle cutoff. That'll give you a little longer to get to it before the engine dies.

As to the door, pull that right side door off, and replace those standard door pins with quick release pins. Now, if you HAVE to prop the airplane, you can pull the right side door off, prop the airplane, re-install the door after the engine is safely running at idle, and off you go. And, BTW, a quick release door is the ONLY way to facilitate loading/unloading these things, and should be installed on every skywagon/etc.

Propping from out front, in my opinion (and we all know about those) is just plain dangerous. Bear in mind that if you are propping with the plane parked on nice smooth pavement or concrete, there's probably a battery charger somewhere nearby. Why are you propping the thing if that's the case. I HAVE to prop my engine....no starter. You don't. For you, it's a "must do" thing, when you're marooned somewhere, usually off airport.

If that's the case, the footing may not be quite as nice as that pavement. And, one slip/trip/snag of a foot, and you MAY well be falling INTO that prop, not away from it. Further, if by some terrible miscue, the throttle is farther open that it should be, and the plane starts to move, you are now right in it's path, again, probably on uneven ground.

If you're behind the prop, that strut isnt' going to push you into the prop, it's going to give you something to grab if you slip, or if the plane starts moving. If the plane moves, and you're behind the prop, you have SOME chance of getting to the controls. If you're out front, you're going to be just trying to get away from the thing.....

If your prop isn't indexed properly, get it properly indexed. Most engine/props should be indexed to come to rest at the 10:00 and 4:00 o'clock indexing, as viewed from the front. If your avatar photo is accurate (ie: not a mirror image) then your prop may be indexed wrong. Get it fixed, and it's a LOT easier to prop, from front or back.

A number of years ago, Aviat started indexing the props on their Huskys at 12:00 and 6:00, supposedly for vibration issues. Earlier airplanes came properly indexed at 10 and 4. Duh....a supposedly back country airplane that's VERY difficult to hand prop. To make matters worse, they were installing the gel battery that they put in the Pitts in the Husky....a notable POS of a battery. I argued with our maintainers to re-index the prop, but they didn't want to do it....till one day I got caught out at -30 on skis in deep snow with a lame battery. I got it started, but when i got back to town, the prop got indexed properly.

Get your prop dynamically balanced, and you'll be doing your airframe a big favor.

MTV

Cary wrote:

mtv wrote:Sigh......

I get tired of hearing all the internet experts pontificating about how you always need a "qualified pilot" at the controls while hand propping, and/or the tail needs to be tied down, with some sort of magic knot......etc.


MTV

Not sure if this was directed at my own comments ("I've hand-propped a number of different airplanes over the years, but always with an experienced pilot at the controls." "He tied the tail to the corner of the hangar with some sort of slip knot, which he could untie from the cockpit."), but if so, I just haven't had the need to hand-prop by myself, that when I have hand-propped, I always had a qualified person at the controls; and I was just commenting on another pilot's method of doing it by himself.Cary

Cary,
There have been a couple threads on other internet forums on this topic, where folks have pontificated on how dangerous propping is, that you should never do so, and if you do.....etc.

Your post kind of reminded me of those, and I apologize if my comments seemed to focus on you....they weren't intended to. You made it clear in your post what you were saying.

Nothing wrong with having a qualified pilot at the controls, if possible, or tying the tail down, again, if possible. My point was simply that it's not always possible. Sorry if I came across as unduly critical.

One other point. I carry one of those cheap (Wal Mart) plastic wheel chocks, to which I've attached a length of parachute cord. Prior to propping, I put that chock in front of the right tire, with the line draped over the tire. After I prop from behind, and get the throttle set to a low idle, I can pull the chock using the cord, stow the chock, and board. Simple, and if the thing started going south, the chock would at least give me a little more time to fix it.

MTV

Why all the fuss and religion over hand propping? There are a lot of safe ways to do it, and people seem to do it safely every day with many of them.

Starting from behind is fine for a lot of folks. Starting from up front is also fine. I can't get my O470 started from behind very easily...not enough room for me to get a good swing for a stone cold engine to make it worth my while. This is especially true when clearing a flooded engine.

I do happen to tie the tail down if I have to clear it (full throttle, idle cut off). I have a reason for it. Laugh if you want...the guy at GJT laughed at the high school kid in '86 when I thought I was helping him by attaching the chain on his tail of his Cherokee. He undid the tail, and minutes later his plane jumped the chock with the parking brake allegedly set. He watched his plane perform a graceful unattended high speed taxi straight across 11/29 before it met its maker, with a Metroliner out on approach.While that example isnt' the greatest, it can't hurt to tie it, even if it is usually unnecessary.

As said, lots of safe ways to do it. Personally I've propped from front and behind; I like from behind on the Luscombe. If I needed to prop and I was still in my tie down space I'd tie the tail down, if I wasn't I'd make sure the throttle was set correctly and the fuel was turned off, no idle cut off. Really not that big a deal if you learn how to do it right.

I hand prop my Cub from behind, and only tie the tail down or chock it if the airport manager is watching. I've always felt very comfortable with my technique, but still stay alert to anything that might screw it up. I face the cockpit and wedge my right foot in front of the tire (like a chock), and push against the landing gear with my left leg, putting a little pressure on it. With my left hand holding onto the door frame, I prop with my right hand and immediately put it on the door frame and grab the throttle with my left and keep it running till I can pull it to idle and hop in. Sounds complicated now that I write it out, but feels very fluid when I actually do it.

The first time I hand propped an airplane was about an hour after getting a demonstration from the owner on how to do it. Bad voltage regulator or something I guess on a cold day.

Anyway, I think I'd read about the prop-from-behind method here, maybe I saw Paul Claus do it, I can't remember. She was still warm and I stepped one foot over the tire and swung the prop down with my right arm with about all the effort of flicking a booger off my finger. She lit up so easily it blew my mind... O-200 on the Sport Cub. This would be my first choice in technique if possible, not as easy on a forward-hinged door of course. I really love seaplane doors for this reason.

I've propped my O470 4 times , the first 2 times because I had to (one because I couldn't talk Burson into doing it ) and twice at my hangar (hangar flying). Every time I was amazed how easy it fired.
Next time I'll try it from behind, but......propping from the front (taildragger with a good angle of attack) pushes you away from the prop as you swing. Pulling from the rear will pull you into the prop. ??

mtv wrote: .....If your prop isn't indexed properly, get it properly indexed. Most engine/props should be indexed to come to rest at the 10:00 and 4:00 o'clock indexing, as viewed from the front. If your avatar photo is accurate (ie: not a mirror image) then your prop may be indexed wrong. Get it fixed, and it's a LOT easier to prop, from front or back.....

You're assuming a lot. The prop is where it is (close to vertical) because that's where I rotate it to when I have the airplane in the hangar. Keeps me from having to duck around the prop every time I come through the (narrowly-opened) doors, or walk around the front of the airplane. I've only had the airplane about 5 weeks or so, and I have no idea if the prop is indexed where Cessna and/or TCM says to index it. Or even IF they do. But I think most indexing specs are done to compensate for vibration / harmonics issues, NOT to make it easy to prop ( at least on a starter-equipped airplane).
A person should prop in a matter that he's comfortable with. I asked my hangar neighbor buddy to prop me the other day when I ran the battery down, and he was man enough (no phoney macho BS) to admit that he hadn't done enough hand- propping to be comfortable doing it. That was fine with me-- I had him sit in the RH seat instead to man the brakes & ignition switch. I prop from in front because that's what I'M comfortable with, esp with this airplane. I was taught to start with my right leg up, then swing it down along with the prop as I step back away from the airplane. As safe as any method I've ever seen, and it has me moving away from the prop instead of leaning into it as it seems I would be doing if I was behind and between the prop and the RH main wheel/gear.
If you're more comfortable propping from behind, great. But don't knock others if they are more comfortable doing it differently. After all, there's more than one right way to skin a cat.

Regardless of where you want to stand, where your compression stroke begins or who else is around- I always double check that my shoes are well tied, and the ground around me is clear.

-DP

hotrod180 wrote:

mtv wrote: .....If your prop isn't indexed properly, get it properly indexed. Most engine/props should be indexed to come to rest at the 10:00 and 4:00 o'clock indexing, as viewed from the front. If your avatar photo is accurate (ie: not a mirror image) then your prop may be indexed wrong. Get it fixed, and it's a LOT easier to prop, from front or back.....

You're assuming a lot. The prop is where it is (close to vertical) because that's where I rotate it to when I have the airplane in the hangar. Keeps me from having to duck around the prop every time I come through the (narrowly-opened) doors, or walk around the front of the airplane. I've only had the airplane about 5 weeks or so, and I have no idea if the prop is indexed where Cessna and/or TCM says to index it. Or even IF they do. But I think most indexing specs are done to compensate for vibration / harmonics issues, NOT to make it easy to prop ( at least on a starter-equipped airplane).
A person should prop in a matter that he's comfortable with. I asked my hangar neighbor buddy to prop me the other day when I ran the battery down, and he was man enough (no phoney macho BS) to admit that he hadn't done enough hand- propping to be comfortable doing it. That was fine with me-- I had him sit in the RH seat instead to man the brakes & ignition switch. I prop from in front because that's what I'M comfortable with, esp with this airplane. I was taught to start with my right leg up, then swing it down along with the prop as I step back away from the airplane. As safe as any method I've ever seen, and it has me moving away from the prop instead of leaning into it as it seems I would be doing if I was behind and between the prop and the RH main wheel/gear.
If you're more comfortable propping from behind, great. But don't knock others if they are more comfortable doing it differently. After all, there's more than one right way to skin a cat.

Don't get your undies in a huge knot....it's the internet. Please note that I said your prop MAY be indexed wrong. And, by the way, it makes NO difference whether you're propping from in front or from behind, having your prop indexed at 10 and 4 when viewed from in front is important, and works best.

I agree with you that if you are most comfortable propping from in front, go for it.....except:

Much of my experience has been off airport. Propping a plane on an uneven surface, or snow, or worst of all an icy surface can be REALLY dangerous done from the front.

On asphalt, it's okay. I personally don't like doing it that way, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

But, when you prop a plane off airport, as I noted in my most recent post, be REALLY, REALLY careful if you're going to do it from in front.

And, propping from behind does NOT have you moving toward the propeller. The motion is all downward, not forward. Again, if anything goes weird, the prop is going away from you, not toward you.

Finally, propping a nosewheel plane from behind is even easier than it is with a taildragger.

To each his own, but please don't misinterpret my post.

MTV

I have friends that prop from the front.

I don't. Works great from the rear, and like MTV says it doesn't make you move into the arc.

Mostly I try to not need to prop, since I have a starter...

mtv wrote: Don't get your undies in a huge knot....

FWIW be advised that cracks like that usually DO get my undies in a knot- although I'm sure you didn't mean it like it sounds. Like you said, it's the internet-- sometimes it's a good idea to look at what you typed before you send it off into the clouds.

mtv wrote:And, propping from behind does NOT have you moving toward the propeller. The motion is all downward, not forward. Again, if anything goes weird, the prop is going away from you, not toward you.

Oh YES it does! If we are talking taildragger.
Propping from the front a taildragger will push you AWAY from the prop as you pull it through.
NOT so much on a nose gear as the prop is more plumb. I feel much more comfortable with a taildragger, but I'm no hand propping pro.
My 180 with 29's propping from the rear will DEFINITELY pull you forward as you swing it through.
I haven't tried propping from the rear, I'll try it next time.
Cheers

Terry wrote:

mtv wrote:And, propping from behind does NOT have you moving toward the propeller. The motion is all downward, not forward. Again, if anything goes weird, the prop is going away from you, not toward you.

Oh YES it does! If we are talking taildragger.
Propping from the front a taildragger will push you AWAY from the prop as you pull it through.
NOT so much on a nose gear as the prop is more plumb. I feel much more comfortable with a taildragger, but I'm no hand propping pro.
My 180 with 29's propping from the rear will DEFINITELY pull you forward as you swing it through.
I haven't tried propping from the rear, I'll try it next time.
Cheers

Seems safer to pull away ( body foreward of propeller) than to push into the prop (body aft of propeller) on a TW aircraft with over sized landing gear...just say'n. No experience with any so far. Good thread.

Terry wrote:My 180 with 29's propping from the rear will DEFINITELY pull you forward as you swing it through.
I haven't tried propping from the rear, I'll try it next time.
Cheers

So, you haven't tried it, but.....

Your ARM will move forward as the prop swings, and of course your upper body will BEND forward. I guess I'm assuming most on this forum are intelligent enough not to start this process standing such that their arm or head will wind up in the prop arc. Perhaps that's a false assumption.

But the important point is your FEET are firmly planted and do not, or at least SHOULD not move when propping from behind, so, ASSUMING you're bright enough to position yourself such that swinging that prop won't place your melon in the prop arc, YOU won't move forward in the process.

If you're not bright enough to keep your head out of the prop arc, please do not hand prop your airplane.

It's all about maintaining your balance, which is much more difficult to do out front. Whereas from the rear, you have lots of things to help you maintain your balance, by keeping hold of the cowl, a door edge on a cub, etc.

And I will repeat again: Do NOT try hand propping your airplane until you have someone who has some experience with this process gives you some instruction in the process.

MTV

There's an expression, "we can agree to disagree". Apparently not everyone here has heard that one.