Looking at/attempting to pick up a 180 from a member here.

I’ve heard the horror stories just like I did about buying my first Maule and still some others that say it’s the easiest TW of them all but the real question is, which end of the spectrum is more realistic? I expect it to be different, but some out there claim the cargo pod is for their brass b@ll$ and that lowly humans have no place in the left seat of the almighty 180.

I think the biggest “aha” will be how long it takes to slow it down compared to a short winged, oleo gear, 35” tire wearing Maule. Anything I need to know or expect about (flying it) going into it?

MountainMatt may be helping hook me up with some of the expected learnings.

Full flaps and slow power pitch approach will make it sink like your Maule approaching slowly with power. The gear is not mean and springy if you are slow and controlling sink with power. If fast and partial flaps, however, the power will just increase speed.

I only had 50ish tw hours before buying the 180 and it took another 50ish hours with lots of landings before I got comfortable with mine. Still learning. Bought it a couple years ago now. Flew with MtnMatt, my primary tw instructor, and another 180 driver friend. All had something different to add and appreciate all their input!

Just have to learn the nuisances of the spring gear. They're not bad. Get good at all the techniques. I liked the tail low wheelies to start, it three points nice so long as you read the section in the poh about nose up trim and holding the tail down. Started with 20deg flap landings, then move on to full. Standard tw stuff. Go straight. It handles crosswinds really well with the right input.

What airplane did you buy? I'm at apa. Feel free to stop by. There are plenty of 180s here.

Jim, your e-book is great!

As long as the alignment is good I find them quite docile. My insurance didnt even require a checkout when I moved up to one from my Citabria. I found it easy to fly, hardest part was learning the constant speed prop as I'd never flown a plane with one before.

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If you can fly a Maule, you can fly a Wagon. In the air, its just another Cessna. The only issue is the touchdown itself. In the flare, setting the weight of the aircraft with minimal deflection of the gear is what takes some time to learn. Not difficult, but takes a bit of seat time to master. Otherwise as others have said, keep it going straight, and its pretty honest. I almost always use the tail low wheel landing any longer. I’ve seen too many cracks in the tail structure (hockey stick) that I believe is the result of hard three points.. I think in the past it has got a bad rap from people who didn’t check to make sure their gear was aligned. That can happen if the airplane is moved back and forth from wheels to floats often and the alignment check is overlooked.

It did me a lot of good to watch a million YouTube videos of Skywagon landings. Seeing the view out of someone else’s windscreen really helped me envision what I was supposed to be doing. The other thing that helped a lot was a GoPro on the stinger. Watching the bad landings showed me that I was doing a couple of things much differently than I thought I was.

Not that I have it figured out yet, but I’ve progressed from Unsafe to Safe-but-not-pretty to Not-bad-but-kinda-long.

You’ll ask yourself, “Is it normal to be trimming so much?” The answer is “Yes.”

You’ll also ask, “Is it normal that I have to pull so hard to get the last notch of flaps?” The angle between your arm and the flap handle is pretty awkward, so the answer here is also “yes.”

People will ask you, “Is it really the handful that everyone says?” You’ll say, “Well, yeah, maybe, I guess so,” but the real answer is “Yeah, it’s the biggest handful of fun I’ve ever had!”

RockHopper wrote:If you can fly a Maule, you can fly a Wagon. In the air, its just another Cessna. The only issue is the touchdown itself. In the flare, setting the weight of the aircraft with minimal deflection of the gear is what takes some time to learn. Not difficult, but takes a bit of seat time to master. Otherwise as others have said, keep it going straight, and its pretty honest. I almost always use the tail low wheel landing any longer. I’ve seen too many cracks in the tail structure (hockey stick) that I believe is the result of hard three points.. I think in the past it has got a bad rap from people who didn’t check to make sure their gear was aligned. That can happen if the airplane is moved back and forth from wheels to floats often and the alignment check is overlooked.

Actually alignment issues have more to do with removing the axle's and not reinstalling the shims between the gear leg and axle correctly than float changes, although I guess that could be a contributor but in my experience it hasn't been. Those shims are tapered, each airplane is a bit different so if you ever remove your axles make darn sure you install the shims the exact way they came off (if the gear was properly shimmed in the first place). After you get it back together it is a good idea to put the airplane on grease plates or what ever your prefered method is and confirm wheel alignment. Proper wheel alignment is critical.

Also, NEVER tie an airplane down with chains!

Kurt

G44 wrote:

RockHopper wrote:If you can fly a Maule, you can fly a Wagon. In the air, its just another Cessna. The only issue is the touchdown itself. In the flare, setting the weight of the aircraft with minimal deflection of the gear is what takes some time to learn. Not difficult, but takes a bit of seat time to master. Otherwise as others have said, keep it going straight, and its pretty honest. I almost always use the tail low wheel landing any longer. I’ve seen too many cracks in the tail structure (hockey stick) that I believe is the result of hard three points.. I think in the past it has got a bad rap from people who didn’t check to make sure their gear was aligned. That can happen if the airplane is moved back and forth from wheels to floats often and the alignment check is overlooked.

Actually alignment issues have more to do with removing the axle's and not reinstalling the shims between the gear leg and axle correctly than float changes, although I guess that could be a contributor but in my experience it hasn't been. Those shims are tapered, each airplane is a bit different so if you ever remove your axles make darn sure you install the shims the exact way they came off (if the gear was properly shimmed in the first place). After you get it back together it is a good idea to put the airplane on grease plates or what ever your prefered method is and confirm wheel alignment. Proper wheel alignment is critical.

Also, NEVER tie an airplane down with chains!

Kurt

What Kurt said. If, after some practice, the plane seems to have a mind of its own, get the thing on grease plates and check the gear alignment. A friend once called me and asked if I’d go fly with him in a Cessna he’d owned for a year. I asked why, and his response was he was scared to put his family in it. He did the first landing, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone work so hard to land an airplane. So I did the next one.......yow!

We drove it over to his mechanic (who’d been blowing him off for months) and told him to put the thing on grease plates. After alignment, it was a sweetheart.

No mysteries to landing these things, really. Get used to the spring gear and you’ll do fine.

I most frequently use 30 flaps, but practice with full, and 20 as well.

Tail low wheel landings are or should be almost mandatory.

On landing and takeoff, don’t worry about keeping the centerline in the middle of the plane.....put the centerline between your feet......it’ll only be a foot off center, and easier to judge, and that’s good enough for me.

In training, line up for a full flap, trimmed, power off landing, and close to the touch, go around. Be prepared to PUSH really hard on that yoke. In that case, on short final, I keep some nose down trim in to help with stick forces in the event of a go around.

MTV

Because the centerline or numbers we use as the target are at a greater distance than the spinner, putting the target between our legs aligns the longitudinal axis. Using the spinner for longitudinal axis alignment in side by side guarantees touching down crooked. The wider the cockpit, the greater the problem. Once we have the centerline or centerline extended between our legs, dynamic proactive rudder movement will keep it there. The nose wiggles, the tail wiggles, the feet move continuously with bracketing purpose. Life is good.

Coordinate with aileron? No! Aileron has to do with drift. Moving aileron here with rudder causes bank and turn. Aileron for drift on final and on the runway. Otherwise no aileron movement. Unfortunately the hand has to be there for elevator. Otherwise, we could take our hand off the yoke as in straight and level cruise using rudder only to direct course.

I find most 180 pilots do better in strong crosswind than light. This is because they know they have to side slip. No wind, little wind, lots of wind? The control is the same. Rudder for longitudinal alignment and aileron for drift.

Hey TxAgfisher -

Congrats on the upgrade to the Wagon! Good call on doing some flying with mtnmatt. He will give you a good workout.

To be honest, it took me a long time to get to the point where I would say I feel "comfortable" in my 180, and even then I will do the occasional landing (or string of them) that humble me and remind me to respect the precision with which the airplane needs to be flown.

A couple of pieces of advice that I got along the way that ring true after gaining some seat time:

1) getting the airplane appropriately slowed down will make any bounce that you have small. I use 40-degree flaps in everything but punchy crosswinds or at night to avoid excessive sink. Get to know the wing in slow flight. Its a puppy, but you have to feel comfortable slow on short final in order to get slow enough to avoid the real spectacular bounces.

2) touch down with absolutely zero vertical rate of descent. This echoes previous comments in this thread. It just takes a while to burn the sight picture into your brain so you know where your a$$ is relative to the grass and what power/pitch manipulations are required to make the tires smoothly roll onto the ground.

3) because the above two items are tough to get right, a minor bounce can be arrested with an instantaneous punch of forward elevator. Tail-low wheelies with a stab of forward elevator at or just before the moment of touchdown is now reflexive for me, but it took me a while to learn just how bold I need to be to flatten the angle of attack of the wings and pin the mains to the ground.

Happy to put you right seat with me sometime so you can watch and learn from my mistakes...

My advice is to not over-think it-- it's an airplane, just start off flying it like your Maule.
(with appropriate input from your high-C180-time checkout pilot of course)
The airplane will tell you what you need to do differently-- more trim, more power on final, whatever.

I had 1100 hours in my C170 & 800 in my C150/150TD when I bought my C180,
the only thing new for me was learning to properly manage the c/s prop.
Otherwise it flew like my other Cessna taildraggers (only heavier)--
no voodoo or PhD required.

I made the same transition, from Maule’s to the C180. The two things that helped me dial in the 180 the most were a forward facing GoPro on the tail and weight in the back. The camera helped me really understand what was going with the mains and different CG seemed to throw me off more in the Cessna than the Maule so practicing with different weights was good. 5 gallon plastic water jugs were the ticket with that.
I agree with the not overthinking it part too.
Have fun!!

All the advice from Contactflying I found on this site was the most helpful for landing a taildragger.
Thank you.

Just listen to Matt. I discovered that he offered instruction that pulled from Contact, MTV, published 180 techniques, etc.

With a seaplane prop and big flaps, slowing them down ain't no thang.

BazzLow wrote:It handles crosswinds really well with the right input.

This, to me, is the most treacherous part of operating a 180. I am skittish in anything above a 12-kt component, particularly on pavement. I have landed in 20 gusting to 30 many times but only when it was within 20 degrees either side of the runway centerline. I am sure that there are folks that can land a 180 in a 20 gust 30 crosswind but I am not that guy. I would like to become that guy but I have not found the right CFI yet that can teach me without undue risk to my airplane.

I have never had a problem slowing them down. On final I like to keep the bottom of the wing parallel to the ground with 30 or 40 flaps. I find that I need a bit of power here to keep the sink rate manageable. It's fun to get them slow and trimmed up with 40 flaps for a short landing but the go-around can be a handful if it comes to that. Partial power, immediately get to 20 flaps, start trimming, and go from there.

They are fabulous machines. Great haulers, comfortable, very stable IFR platforms, and they look cool. They do a lot of things very well! Congratulations on yours and enjoy it!

I’m not a fan of partial power for a go around. If you have significant sink at initiation of the bolster, partial power may not be sufficient to avoid contact with the surface.

This scenario is one tat every Skywagon Pilot needs to experience, though, and figure out how you’ll deal with it. As I noted earlier, I roll in some nose down trim on final with full flaps. This does two things: First, if you need to go around, you’ll already have a head start on the need for nose down trim. Secondly, a little nose down trim in a tail low wheel landing makes the roll up onto the mains easy and natural.

So if you go around, you won’t have to fight so much off trim. If you land, the nose down trim will make rolling up onto the mains totally natural.

And if you think this is an issue in a 180, give it a try in a 185, with more thrust.

Give it a try.

MTV

Slowmover, have you tried angle across wide runway? With full flaps and the headwind component of the crosswind, 1,000' is plenty. If more go around pavement is desired, angle to farther down. Without obstructions, go around over the grass is fine.

If slow (airspeed), sink is easily controlled with throttle. With significant gust/shear, throttle may need to go to stop and then adjust. Like any other flight control, we need to move it to learn what it can do. If we don't like it, we can take it out (move it the other way.) The important anti-damage thing is slow groundspeed. Don't give up free slowness (low groundspeed) with great control ( high airspeed.) Strong headwind component, down runway in headwind or angle across in crosswind, is the best of both slow groundspeed and high airspeed.

Little airplanes in rough air are not going to be stabilized. Therefore, the pilot needs to be dynamic. The heavier 180 is more stable than a J-3 or Champ, but God is still bigger.

Hang in there,

Jim

I think you will do fine transitioning to the C180 with your previous TW experience in the Maule. I love the way mine lands and flyies and I think you are going to enjoy the learning process. I have flown about 10 different models of C180s and C185s and everyone of them flew and landed a little different. The early models land/take off with a lighter feel than the later model C180 and C185s. I also found my plane much easier to land after I placed the Sportsman STOL kit and removed the size 6 tires. As other have replied longitudinal control with rudder is the key either with wheel landings or 3 points. I favor wheel landings but practice both and always revert to a 3 point with a botched wheel landing.

Normal landings at 65-70 mph approach speeds in no wind are effortless after some practice (wheel or 3 point). Add gusty winds and short runways and things change but after some time are very manageable. I found I can land in just about any X wind (within my comfort zone) with full flaps and like touching down at a slower speed. I used to use a 20-30 degree setting but I seem to have great rudder control even with 40 degrees of flaps. With Wheel landings in a X wind the opposing rudder creates a shimmy when I set the tail down and literally does not go away until the plane is dead stopped. Some of the later model C185s have locking tailwheels to prevent this.

Short field approaches take a lot of practice. I use 55-60 mph approach speeds. No wind I have taken it down near 50. I try to hold sufficient power to control the sink rate and maintain a stabilized approach to the touchdown point with the minor power changes. Works both with wheel or 3 point and creates a smooth transition to the ground with great control. Power comes off right when the wheels touch. The short field landings have taken the most time to perfect (still working on getting better). I find the Cessna gear to be just incredible. I still do some really awful landings and am amazed at how hearty the gear is and how much punishment it can take. As long as the longitudinal axis is straight there is no real risk of a ground loop.

Take offs are straight forward - short or normal - but my closest call and near ground loop came during a take off. I am always very mindful of the wind direction and there is a definite gyroscopic effects of the prop when the nose is lowered.

Not sure model you are looking at acquiring but I wouldn't be at all intimidated about flying a C180/185 - the only thing that may cause some pain is the cost of parts and ownership.

Josh

mtv wrote:I’m not a fan of partial power for a go around. If you have significant sink at initiation of the bolster, partial power may not be sufficient to avoid contact with the surface.

This scenario is one tat every Skywagon Pilot needs to experience, though, and figure out how you’ll deal with it. As I noted earlier, I roll in some nose down trim on final with full flaps. This does two things: First, if you need to go around, you’ll already have a head start on the need for nose down trim. Secondly, a little nose down trim in a tail low wheel landing makes the roll up onto the mains easy and natural.

So if you go around, you won’t have to fight so much off trim. If you land, the nose down trim will make rolling up onto the mains totally natural.

And if you think this is an issue in a 180, give it a try in a 185, with more thrust.

Give it a try.

MTV

Mike, I understand your point. I should have been more specific. More specifically, I apply enough power to get a positive rate of climb going, then start retracting flaps and trimming, and then get the rest of the power in. I always wind up with full power in a go-around, but I might not get there immediately.