slowmover wrote: I am sure that there are folks that can land a 180 in a 20 gust 30 crosswind but I am not that guy. I would like to become that guy but I have not found the right CFI yet that can teach me without undue risk to my airplane.

In my former Bonanza, big crosswinds were no big deal. Talking with an instructor about crosswinds in the 185, he said, “We know you can do it. We know the airplane can do it. Now we just have to get the two of you together.” Finding an instructor to get you from Wagon grade school to high school and beyond is difficult in a lot of places.

It’s like a horse: powerful, beautiful, sometimes skittish, happy to buck you off, but also willing to do anything you ask once you learn the right cues. Or so I’m told. I don’t have that relationship with mine yet.

Takeoff issues: Alignment issues, gyroscopic precession of prop when bringing tail up, p factor when we raise the nose to bring the mains off, and finally more precession when we lower the nose to stay in low ground effect are all absorbed into the balancing effect of dynamic proactive rudder movement. Some things can be fixed by the mechanic, some not. Regardless, we can stay ahead of the beast using dynamic proactive rudder movement. Lots of big, quick, dynamic, and continuous when slow becoming smaller but still quick, dynamic, and continuous as we speed up. Never quit. The controls feel better with tail up and speed, but it ain't over.

Straight, no ground loop. Slow, no big bounce and very short period when ground loop will catch a wing, bend a gear attach box, and such.

TJ,

A Wagon is a slippery bird in the air when she is cleaned up especially approaching the pattern at 145mph. But all you need do is close the cowl flaps, pull the power back at a pace that won't shock cool the engine but will get you to idle (or near it) as quickly as possible, and pitch the nose up. She'll gain a little altitude (not too much) but she'll bleed off speed quickly.

Once she is in flap range start feeding in the flaps as it feels comfortable (the effort on the Johnson bar I'm talking about) and doesn't create lift. And remember (confirm this with your POH for your year/model) you can put her into a slip with the flaps down to loose altitude even quicker and/or slow up even more (I'm talking on wheels or skis here).

At touchdown if she bounces back in the air with anything that feels like she is flying again, or floating, you landed too fast. And on final loosen the friction knob on the throttle and keep your right hand on it so you can give it up to a full-throttle burst to arrest an unexpected (or planned) high sink rate. Sometimes it takes a full throttle burst.

The spring gear will feel different especially rolling over rough ground with the wing tips rocking back and forth. Be sure and consider that if going into a narrow rough strip with bushes or embankments you need to clear with the wings.

Ground loops? Certainly if you review the accident statistics a majority are a result of ground loops. But she isn't a plane that wants to ground loop, not like a Stearman which when on the ground is constantly thinking "I'd really rather be pointing the other direction". You're the cowboy, don't let her do it and she won't.

I'm excited for you. Send me a pic and tell me about her when you get her. You will love the Wagon.

Phil

Phil,

Just nit picking here, but the ski installations I’m familiar with prohibit slips with flaps deployed.

As you pointed out, the verbiage in the POH changed with model year for wheels. But I will tell you that you can get some nasty effects slipping one on skis with flaps down.

And, no, didn’t break anything, but it took some doing to get the stains out of mine and the check airman’s seat cushions.

And that’s all I have to say about that.

MTV

Thanks for that info Mike - the skis...not the stains.

When I bought my 180, a year ago last August 1, I was a 160 hour total time pilot. I had 3.9 hours of tailwheel experience in a real airplane and the rest, about 60 was in a homebuilt that everyone calls an ultralight.
I think everyone I talked to tried to psych me out. Don't let it get away from you when you power up. Remember dancing feet. It was even suggested that I buy a cub or something smaller as a first airplane. By the time I got in my own 180 I was pretty damn nervous. I hired an instructor to fly it back from Washington to EGE with me. He says he never helped me out on a landing or a take off, and signed me off for insurance and high performance in 6 hours of flying. I was not super confident after 6 hours and flew with a new friend for a couple of hours. Never looked back. I love the plane and have taken it to some pretty cool places. My first Utah trip was Horseshoe, to Angel Point, to Happy Canyon, to Dirty Devil, then Moab for fuel and home to GWS.
I have heard many bad things about Maule handling, I wonder if it is the same as people were saying about the 180? But everyone pretty much says the Maule is HARDER to land and handle on the ground than the 180. Personally I do not find the 180 hard to land or handle on the ground, in the air it's as everyone says, another Cessna.

If I touch down faster than about 50 my tailwheel shimmys. Slower than that its no problem. I have a 520 and a 3 blade, and a sportsman, in smooth air final is 40 indicated. 40 indicated with 40 degrees, prop flat with motor at 1800 rpm is 500fpm, trim is all the way to the stop, shot of power and full elevator for a three point, shut down in 800 feet pretty easily at GWS in the summer. Wheel landings, I like final to be about 50 indicated.
I am now at about 340 hours, about 100 hours in the 180. I get lazy and start landing at 55 to 60 when I have lots of runway available, wheel landings. for some reason I really prefer wheel landings.

I'm a newbie, take my experiences for what they are worth.

Thanks for all the replies, looks like a buddy/CFI/180 guy is going to roll up there with me to appease the insurance since the stars didn’t align for a checkout.

Should have final go/no-go on prebuy soon and leave out of here Saturday to get my hands on it.

People say the Maule is a handful but I think they are pretty straight forward - my Pacer could sure surprise you though if you were lackadaisical in your efforts.

I’m excited to get into it and learn to fly it like I’ve seen some of you guys I’ve seen at Valdez and TX STOL.

Caveat: I’ve never flown a 180 or 185 on wheels. Floats only and not a ton at that.

I took my longtime, high hour 180/185 friend on a ride in my plane and he had a tough time with it. To the point where I paid someone to check the wheel alignment because he was so nervous after his first couple of attempted landings.

Alignment was perfect, I just have a short-coupled airplane. And she has a little heading ADHD.

I’d be curious to hear your pirep after you get some time in your 180.

I’ve always thought after that event that once I had my plane all figured out I’d be able to land just about anything. I’m not there yet, but getting closer .

Barnstormer wrote: You're the cowboy, don't let her do it and she won't.

Phil

Having recently transitioned from the 170 to the 180, this is my biggest takeaway. Everyone told me the 180 is "heavier on the controls". I'm a little dense and have to see things for myself I guess ..... after getting a close look at the runway edge markings on a 150 ft wide runway, I learned that when you need to apply rudder, PUSH that SOB! A little pressure on the pedal won't do it. Go to the gym and build up the leg muscles in preparation for the 180 rudder. (mine is a late model factory seaplane if that makes any difference). Make it go where you want it to.

Now when I get back in the 170, I remember what a nice flying, well balanced machine it is. A pleasure to fly. I like them both, but the 180 requires more muscle, especially for the rudder.

Also, reset the trim before takeoff. A little rushing between stop and go's ... well, you'll only take off with the trim set for landing once. Same with rudder trim if you mess with it... set it for cruise and descent, forget to reset it, and you'll see the left side of the runway on your next takeoff. I have a friend.... a high time 180 owner .. who says he sets the pitch trim for cruise and never touches it again. He just man handles it for landing. I tried it and it doesn't work for me. I like to fly in trim, with a little nose down trim for landing for the above mentioned reasons.

kg wrote:...Also, reset the trim before takeoff. A little rushing between stop and go's ... well, you'll only take off with the trim set for landing once. ….. I have a friend, high time 180 owner, who says he sets the pitch trim for cruise and never touches it again. He just man handles it for landing. I tried it and it doesn't work for me. I like to fly in trim......

x2 on the taking off with nose-up trim set-- it makes a lasting impression.

The 180 is definitely a trim airplane, much more so than my 170 or my 150TD.
I find it hard to believe that someone would NOT trim the 180 in the pattern--
why would you want to fight it, instead of fly it?

Pulled the trigger and got it home yesterday. Not a bad flight from the Minneapolis area to Denver in about 6 hours with a fuel stop.

Lot still to learn - couldn’t seem to get enough rudder in it on TO, ran back out to the hangar today to see if I was crazy and found that sitting where I was my stubby legs could not provide full deflection. I’ll have to have the seat as far forward as it will go.

Landing was a non event although a lot of practice and approaches will be in order to really start understanding it.

All in all I’m pleased with it, I think it will do the job I need it to and that I’ll be able to tame the beast and get to where I can get it in and out short like the Maule.

Special thanks to Asa for making the trip with me to satisfy the insurance company too on short notice.

TxAgfisher wrote:…couldn’t seem to get enough rudder in it on TO, ran back out to the hangar today to see if I was crazy and found that sitting where I was my stubby legs could not provide full deflection. I’ll have to have the seat as far forward as it will go. ....

I have short legs but with the seat all the way forward I could reach the pedals OK,
but found that it was pretty tight for me with the yoke full aft (I'm on the husky side too).
I also found that full rudder pedal deflection with my feet up on the brakes tended to self-apply the brakes due to the pedal angle.
I made up some pedal extensions which helped in this regard--
no more uncommanded braking plus now I can locate the seat one hole aft of full forward.
I've seen similar blocks on a couple other 180's owned by short-legged people.

hotrod180 wrote:

TxAgfisher wrote:…couldn’t seem to get enough rudder in it on TO, ran back out to the hangar today to see if I was crazy and found that sitting where I was my stubby legs could not provide full deflection. I’ll have to have the seat as far forward as it will go. ....

I have short legs but with the seat all the way forward I could reach the pedals OK,
but found that it was pretty tight for me with the yoke full aft (I'm on the husky side too).
I also found that full rudder pedal deflection with my feet up on the brakes tended to self-apply the brakes due to the pedal angle.
I made up some pedal extensions which helped in this regard--
no more uncommanded braking plus now I can locate the seat one hole aft of full forward.
I've seen similar blocks on a couple other 180's owned by short-legged people.

I jokingly told a buddy I might have to do this very thing... now I might actually have to!

Those blocks on the bottoms of the rudder pedals are very helpful in keeping toes off brakes. The new style Cessna pedals have something similar designed in.

I put a set of those in my 170 and really liked them. At the time, they were cheap: $85 a set of four.

MTV

I didn't have this self-applying-brakes issue with my 69 C150, my 48 170, or my 64 150TD.
Curious that the pedal geometry would be different on the 180, esp when the 170 had the same pedals,
but it is.

I am 5'5" with a missing vertebrae now and was 5'7" . I have always used Oregon Aero's full thickness seat cushion and seat back for Cessnas. I have never used the rudder extensions, but I like them. The Huey had adjustable pedals.

Seat full up and full forward gives the safest situational awareness for contact flying. Low wing helps tremendously, but that can't be helped in high wing airplanes. Helicopters are designed for contact flying.

I'm 5 feet, 8 and 1/2 inches. Don't forget the 1/2"!
I fly with my seat all the way forward, corner of seat is touching the interior panel in front of the door. I can barely get full rudder with the seat there, but I can. And the seat is all the way up. Visibility isn't that bad with little tires.

contactflying wrote:.....Seat full up and full forward gives the safest situational awareness for contact flying.....

Not necessarily-- that puts a tall guy's head up into the wing root.
As in most other things, there are very few absolutes in flying.

hotrod180 wrote:

contactflying wrote:.....Seat full up and full forward gives the safest situational awareness for contact flying.....

Not necessarily-- that puts a tall guy's head up into the wing root.
As in most other things, there are very few absolutes in flying.

You'll typically get a bit more throw on the rudder if your seat isn't all the way up. All the way up requires pushing down at an steep angle to manipulate the pedals. Drop the seat down and your pushing more front to back, inline with the actual travel of the system. Can make taxiing on 31s a little challenging though.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Took two days to get it clean, but my first real flight on learning the airplane was today.

All I can say is, I understand the hype around 180’s. Such a stable platform in all aspects. It will take some seat time to get it to land as short as I want it to - have to figure out what works the best. With the Maule I could chop the power and drop it in, the spring gear takes more finesse.