As a test in my studies of backcountry flying I wanted to know if I could fly into Johnson Creek (3U2) in my 165hp Musketeer with my wife.

I found a great website on the theory of mountain flying at ( http://www.canyonflying.com/ ).

So here is the theory part of it...

I have no problem running off my 2,700' 1,000'MSL grass strip at gross 2350# on a standard 29.92"hg 55.5f day. At 1,000'DA my engine is putting out 159hp for a power loading of 14.76#/hp

If I just put Shelly & I (380#), survival kit (15#), and 1.5hr fuel (90#) in our 1445# empty plane (1930# total weight) I need 130hp to get the 14.76#/hp power loading.

I get 130hp at 5,928'DA (-3.5%hp/1,000'DA)

Ok JC (3U2) is at 4,933'MSL. On a 29.92"hg 57f morning the DA is 5,941'.

Looking at www.weather.com Yellow Pine (3m north of 3U2) was 29.90"hg and 56f at sunrise. So yes I could have flown out of JC.

I think this is being correctly conservative for mountain flying. I know in the flat lands I can fly at 15.65#/hp powerloading and the plane flys just fine.

So what do you think?

TIA,

Todd Giencke

tgiencke wrote: So what do you think?

Fly up to Johnson Creek and have a great time!!!!!

Gump

tgiencke wrote:Ok JC (3U2) is at 4,933'MSL. On a 29.92"hg 57f morning the DA is 5,941'.

How did you arrive at this? At standard pressure and temperature (29.92" & 59 deg F) isn't the density altitude equal to absolute altitude?

Edit: I just thought about this and corrected my thinking... standard temp decreases with altitude. Duh!

Good thread, Todd.

GumpAir wrote: Fly up to Johnson Creek and have a great time!!!!!

I would do it but it's 950nm due west and would take a full day to get to.

Buy hey I would be at the right fuel load when I got there.

I lived in Great Falls, MT for 4yrs with the Air Force. On my list of things to do is fly to Yellowstone and Glacier parks to show my wife my old stomping grounds.

And JC is not very far... And everybody talks about it... so I thought if the plane is up to it we would drop in for a night of camping.

On Friday we spent $700 on real backpacking camping gear to lighten our camping gear load. Amazingly light gear can be had at REI. ( www.rei.com ).

Thanks,

-Todd Giencke

I'm sure you can get INTO Johnson Creek, the question is can you get OUT?

Theory and calculated performance is all very well, but JC is the real world with NO options if things don't work out as you think they should!

As JrCubBuilder says, leave the wife at McCall while you go try it. I'd also leave everything else there too, except 25 gallons of gas. Go land at JC, do your calculations and pace off exactly where you think you'll get airborne and exactly what climb rate you think you will get then takeoff and see if the reality matches your expectations. If it does and you're comfortable then go for it! Otherwise consider ferrying stuff in and/or out.

Good Luck!



Rocky

I said this before, but I'll say it again. Johnson creek has the highest accident rate in all the Idaho backcountry airstrips. The majority of accidents are inexperienced pilots with underpowered aircraft. Ask the 200 horse Beech Sierra with 3 fatalities, ask the 180 horse PA28 Cherokee with 2 fatalities, ask the 145 horse Cessna 172, etc.. Check out the AOPA website, airport directory, put in the airport identifier (3U2), click on ASF accident reports.
As the summer progresses, it is getting hotter and hotter. It was 95 here in McCall yesterday, I'm sure it was the same at Johnson Creek. Soon there will be fires and lots of smoke, and lousy visibility.
No offence, But I don't believe it is good advice to tell someone to just go there and have fun. I would also be very carefull with the liability factor of advising someone on this web site. I'm not a lawyer, but I know how they work.
By the way, Amy Hoover is an excellent instructor. You would do well by getting instruction from her.

IdahoSuperCub

Idaho SuperCub wrote: No offence, But I don't believe it is good advice to tell someone to just go there and have fun. I would also be very carefull with the liability factor of advising someone on this web site.

I dunno... I've always had fun every trip up there. In spite of the lawyers, last I heard this was still a free country, and a man was free to take risks and travel where he pleased.

Idaho SC,

Don't think I'm going to go bumbling into JC just because it's there and people talk about it.

I just used it as an example for my studies because it is talked about.

I enjoy expanding my horizons and skills as a pilot. In Minneapolis I haven't been able to find a CFI that teaches light backcountry training. So I have been doing a lot of book learning. But that is all it is, theory and book knowledge; which only goes so far in the real world.

That being said I have had fun applying some of this knowledge and starting fly camping with my wife. Be sure, I'm going to get some mountain training before trying anything that far west.

Through these studies I have found the adage of "tied down by 10am" not to apply to my low hp. According to the weather channel by 8am the tempature is too hot (62f 6,280' DA).

-Todd Giencke

Musketeer

Johnson Creek has a grass runway. When last I was there, the grass was very thick and quite resistant. It usually is. I think the thickness and density of the grass is a factor that maybe is not addressed in all of those numbers that you quoted. I have found that in the backcountry performance is not always something you can figure out on a calculator.
Your calculations are a good start but there may be other factors that are also important.

Good luck

flyer

Oh, criminy, NO---whatever you do, don't go into any of those EXTREMELY hazardous Idaho backcountry airstrips unless you've flown at LEAST 3,000 hours in the Idaho backcountry.

Oh, wait--how the hell do you get that experience without going there, eh?

Same thing applies to Alaska. Look at the accident statistics. They tell you everything you need to know about THAT state--DON'T even think about going there in YOUR airplane. Go there on a smoker, and HIRE some of the locals to take you where you want to go.

There is no rocket science involved in either place. There is a good bit of consideration that SHOULD be given prior to launching off for such a place, however, and it seems like our friend here is simply trying to do some of that pre-work. Cut him some slack.

Should he just go there without giving it another thought? No. Point is, he IS thinking about it, and asking pertinent questions. Answer his questions.

I have never been to Johnson Creek. Last summer was the first time I went to Smiley Creek. After I arrived, a couple pilots were telling me how dangerous it is to fly there when its warm, and that it's a one way strip, and so on.... What utter crap. Two hours after I landed, with all these admonitions, an air taxi 206 landed, dropped off a load and picked one up, and left. I thought Smiley Creek was an international airport, frankly, even at 7000 feet msl.

Next day, I boogied over towards Boise. Enroute, I dropped in to Upper Loon. That one is a little more challenging, but again, the Stupor Cub guys there thought I was nuts. They were from California, I think. That place is a nice strip.

It's all perspective, and yes, the Idaho backcountry is littered with accident airplanes. So is Alaska. Perhaps they didn't ask pertinent questions, or pay attention to advice from fellow aviators.

I think Darwin had something to say about that, actually.

MTV

mtv wrote:What utter crap. Two hours after I landed, with all these admonitions, an air taxi 206 landed, dropped off a load and picked one up, and left. I thought Smiley Creek was an international airport, frankly, even at 7000 feet msl.
MTV

What? You don't need a $100,00 Supercub with tractor wheels to land off tarmac?

flyer wrote:I think the thickness and density of the grass is a factor that maybe is not addressed in all of those numbers that you quoted. I have found that in the backcountry performance is not always something you can figure out on a calculator.
Your calculations are a good start but there may be other factors that are also important.

I had a good reply, but...

My battery died.

So I'll just say that with applying book knowledge I have figured out how to fly off my 2,700' grass strip at gross weight (2350#) at 3,300'DA.

Having lived in the MT mountains I'm not going to fly through them with out some instruction. I'm trying to learn any way I can and find out what I can do with the plane I got.

I hope this doesn't come across as terse but I hate when I have to rewrite a thought.

-Todd Giencke

Hmm, some intersting thoughts.

Me having never been into JC would only offer the advice of flying in the coolest part of the day, and go light. Same with any mountain strip, or high desert strip. Flying in the heat of the day as most well know stinks. Makes flying, work vs fun. I came across the Black Rock Desert once in the heat of the day, most likely will not do that again.

By looking at the JC web cam, I see Mooneys, sorted Pipers, low and high wing, RV's, Cessnas, Beeches, and some stuff in the back ground that I can't tell what they are.

There are holes in the ground from low time and high time pilots that have made errors in judgement. I have personally lost 2 flight instructors that I've used from those errors. Hopefully I learn from their mistakes and try not to get myself into that type of situation.

Comes down to personal minumins. I don't fly across the desert, in the dark, single engine. Why because I've done it before and thought WTF am I doing here. There isn't beans for land marks, hardly any lights, and a long way from anywhere if you have to put it down.

How it this relevent to JC

Fly into McCall, get a room, spend the night, grab a local instructor, fly out early make a couple of landings get informed, and go from there using the latest information.

How's that saying go, "You can land anywhere once"!

Fly smart, Bub

Smart thinking!!


IdahoSuperCub

If we can't discuss the nitty gritty of flying into backcountry strips without fear of litigation, I might as well pull the plug on this site tonight, unless all you want to talk about is "what plane is right for me?"

I suppose we should relegate the "piloting" part of the topic to the other threads about the topic, and keep this thread relevant to the orig post, which was "can my aircraft do it?"

I like it when people besides me ask these questions, even though I'm the Alpha Noob.

Todd, here’s my .02 worth. JC was the first backcountry strip I landed at. I am a low time pilot, 180 hours. Take what I say with a pound of salt. I had no problem but I fly a M7 with 235 HP. Be good at slow flight.

The most important thing I can add is have a spot, where if you are not flying STOP! I spent a lot of time studying JC on Google Earth. It really helped me. Once airborne and flying down stream you have time to climb. Get high. Know where you are at all times. Like everybody says, get some instruction. That’s on my to do list. Cheers…Rob

RobBurson wrote:Todd, here’s my .02 worth. JC was the first backcountry strip I landed at. I am a low time pilot, 180 hours. Take what I say with a pound of salt. I had no problem but I fly a M7 with 235 HP. Be good at slow flight.

The most important thing I can add is have a spot, where if you are not flying STOP! I spent a lot of time studying JC on Google Earth. It really helped me. Once airborne and flying down stream you have time to climb. Get high. Know where you are at all times. Like everybody says, get some instruction. That’s on my to do list. Cheers…Rob

A quick reply before work...

Being able to slow fly is the main reason I'm testing the abilities of the Musketeer to do light backcountry flying. I can fly at full gross 2350#, almost full aft CG, 3,300'DA on the ground, and putter around at 52 knots with full control. The Musketeer is a great load hauler if you don't overload it. I think it will be a all right light backcountry plane if flown light.

I have only two gripes with the Musketeer.

- I can pop off the ground into ground effect pretty soon with the flap technique (44 knots). But it takes a while to accelerate to Vx (68 knots).

- Cruise speed is slow at 100 knots.

Got to run...

-Todd Giencke

Todd,

Don't count on that "popping it off in ground effect" trick when the density altitude is really high. You may be hanging there for a long time, till something hard interferes.

Try that at a high DA somewhere with NO obstructions and no gradient on the way out. As in downhill. First.

Zane,

We're all filing suit right now against this site for providing accurate, inaccurate and misleading propaganda.

I think some of these guys been lying about the ages of their airplanes,

MTV

Fly up to Johnson Creek and have a great time!!!!!

Gump

[/quote]

I dont think they got it

zane wrote:

tgiencke wrote:Ok JC (3U2) is at 4,933'MSL. On a 29.92"hg 57f morning the DA is 5,941'.

How did you arrive at this? At standard pressure and temperature (29.92" & 59 deg F) isn't the density altitude equal to absolute altitude?

Edit: I just thought about this and corrected my thinking... standard temp decreases with altitude. Duh!

Good thread, Todd.

Standard temperature at JC is about 41F. How often in the summer is it that cool, even in the morning? So keep that in mind, you're already above DA even for an early morning take-off.

We've been having DA's in McCall of 8500' or more in the afternoon lately.

John