I'm with Cary....let's replace the phrase "caught on top with no gyros" with "got into a game of of Russian Roulette with three bullets in the chambers". Now what would your answer be? It would be "I would damn well NEVER get into a game of Russian Roulette with three chambers loaded!". Well, without gyros those are about your odds. Maybe someone's gotten away with it...or says they have. It really doesn't change the odds. You shouldn't allow it to happen...period. When you start seeing an undercast turn back or get underneath it. Right now. If you have to set down, do it.

Anyone use the "virtual Panel" contained in most handheld aviation GPS?

Well, I figured I would get some strong opinions and have a chance to learn a few thing from this discussion. I got both.
I must say I disagree with the apparently newer methods of teaching that say "NEVER get yourself into these/this situation"... And then drop the subject-end of discussion!
I was taught by a youngish instructor that had been taught by older guys under the watchful eyes of an FAA filled with older guys that had flown in the war-and they posessed some very 'common sense' dominated teaching methods and philosophies. They taught "Don't Ever do X.... Plan your flying to avoid it since it is dangerous and foolish-BUT-when/if it happens to you, do Y, or in a slightly different circumstance of X, do Z. I have seen instances in more recent years in flying where the "just don't do it" approach gave inadequate options and thing turned out poorly.
Back in the mid 60's good instructors taught how to spin both right and left and how to exit spins and you did it till you were reasonably proficient. He/they also taught instrument flying and unusual attitude recovery very thoroughly under the gauges.... And mine did too once we transitioned from the J-3 to that modern marvel known as a C150.
Back then it was just "known" that the places that cared about producing quality pilots started them in tail draggers. Only the "pilot mills" (very derogatory term) started pilots out in "Land-o-matic" (airplanes were advertised that way) nose wheel airplanes..... Back then the older pilots were very concerned that newer methods and newer airplanes would fill the skies with 'airplane drivers', and I believe to some extent that has happened.
Oops. Sorry, I wandered off topic..
I do appreciate the wealth of knowledge available here on BCP. I like that ideas and/or "knowledge" can be discussed from many varied perspectives and improved, disproved, or modified in our minds by the discussion. I think it is extremely important that we keep a "no harm, no foul" attitude so pilots can feel comfortable to bring up things they have heard, or ideas they have, or questions they have, without getting "blasted" and called-or infered to be-morons or idiots...
Pilots tend to be people of strong opinions (understatement), so it is frequently difficult for us (me, too) to soften them and be diplomatic on here, but I believe that is extremely important in this websites continued success. IMHO.

Thanks, guys!
lc

The is nothing "newish" about understanding that IFR without gyro instruments is not really an option. I probably shouldn't have posted as the original post had the flavor of someone trying to figure out how to make himself feel a little safer taking chances.
I do teach students getting their PPL how to get out of inadvertent cloud encounters. I usually do much more than the FAA basic requirements and ad a healthy dose of "this is a very dangerous situation to get into". These are pilots flying with a full six pack panel or a modern glass panel, not a panel without even a turn-coordenator and ball.
I stand by my post. Without an instrument rating, descending through IFR conditions is dangerous. Without a rating or a single gyro instrument it is beyond foolish. There are conditions you can't fly in without the panel.

littlewheelinback wrote: Without an instrument rating, descending through IFR conditions is dangerous. Without a rating or a single gyro instrument it is beyond foolish. There are conditions you can't fly in without the panel.

True, but sometimes circumstances dictate that you must fly in IFR conditions without gyros. You can either sit there and wait to enter into a high speed/high G spiral and shed the tail on the way down. Or, you can go into a fail-safe mode with high drag/low power and descend in a configuration that won't allow the airplane to build up high airspeed or a high rate of descent.

Way safer than spinning, and easy enough to learn.

With a portable GPS keeping a heading is way easier than with a wet compass, just steer with your feet. If all ya got is the compass, just stick to an east/west heading (if terrain allows) to avoid lead/lag issues.

Bottom line is, if you fly a lot, and fly places with long distances between weather reporting, sooner or later Mother Nature and Murphy are going to conspire against you. Either close wx in/around/ over/under you, and/or start shutting down airplane systems to where you have nothing working but an engine pulling you through the air, and the seat of your pants and brain keeping you alive.

Gump

I am not a sit and wait kind of pilot at all. Part of not sitting and waiting is not continuing into IFR without equipment. I have flown for wages in areas with no or very inaccurate weather reporting. I have been caught and survived. The thing to learn, and to pass on, is not "well, when it happened to me I did this and got away with it". The thing to learn and pass on is "don't do the dumbass thing I did, when you see these conditions, turn back".

I've also learned from these posts that there is really little use in posting an obviously learned and reasoned opinion. littlecub I think you should spin down through the undercast...I heard somewhere that it worked for some airmail pilot in the '30s so it must be the real deal...go ahead and fly on over the undercast...everyone on this sight will talk about what a great guy you where and how sorry they are that you're dead.

Have I ever flown VFR over an under cast?
Have I ever done that with not enough fuel to get to an alternate?
When the closest gas is 150 miles away?
The closet approach the same distance away?
Have I ever had a vaucumn failure while on top VFR?
Have I ever had an electrical failure while on top VFR?
Have I ever been half way between Cordova and Yakutat or Ketchican,various other placesVFR on top with just a little approach on either end and had shit go out the door? You have the beach you can't land on, the ocean, the mountains. Am I not going to fly? NO!
I quess that is why I fly with the 696 and one of those little jumper battery's you get at wall mart!
Dumb, probably! My choice, yes, do it again, yes? Worth the risk to me,yes. Dangerous, no I don't think so for me?
Will I die flying? Absolutely not, can't say that about landing though!
Worth the risk? 40,000 people get killed in car wrecks every year, am I going to quit driving. NO!
Hope I find a rock in a cloud rather than hang around for a couple of years not knowing what happens around me, or having something eat the life out of me!
Call me selfish if yo want! Dumb also, that's just the way I am!
Are pilots going to get caught on top? yes it will never stop!
Should they be prepared for an emergency? yes!
The folks that fly blue bird weather are great.
I do not have time or patience to do that? Do I push it some times, yes, will it catch me, I don't know???
I have tried to be as prepared and trained as I can be!
Hell some pilots won't fly IFR with out 2 engines and an AP.
I might turn into one of those, who knows? Just not yet!
Do I enjoy Life? yes with Gusto!

Don't tell people not to do that, you are not in there shoes!
Give them encouragement, help if you can, a push if able, a pat on the back when they come up with a thought different than yours, especially if it is out of the box a little! how do think we got the airplanes, the instruments to fly IFR.
Boy I wish. Gas wasn't $10 a gallon, I. Would be out flying today instead of typing this stuff here!!!!
think I'll go polish the windshield!!??
Enjoy Life
GT

Have I ever flown VFR over an under cast?
Have you done this without a single gyro instrument in you aircraft?

Have I ever had a vaucumn failure while on top VFR?
If you are flying with standard instruments, you should have electrical gyro redundancy.

Have I ever had an electrical failure while on top VFR?
If you are flying with standard instruments, you should have vacuum gyro redundancy.

Have I ever been half way between Cordova and Yakutat or Ketchican,various other placesVFR on top with just a little approach on either end and had shit go out the door? You have the beach you can't land on, the ocean, the mountains. Am I not going to fly? NO!
Why do this without at least the safety of standard gyro instruments?

I quess that is why I fly with the 696 and one of those little jumper battery's you get at wall mart!
If you are trying to fly with this redundancy, why not have standard instruments in your plane? Cost? Really?

Will I die flying?
If you are going repeatedly into IFR conditions without any gyro instruments...yes you will.

Worth the risk?
Why take that risk? There is a simple solution...have the panel, know how to use it.

Hope I find a rock in a cloud rather than hang around for a couple of years not knowing what happens around me, or having something eat the life out of me!
As a flyer, who loves the freedom to fly, I find that sentiment a threat. Every time someone kills himself flying, it means I have to pay more and risk loosing the right to fly. If you want to die, don't do it in an airplane, please.

Call me selfish if yo want! Dumb also, that's just the way I am!
You said, it not me.

Are pilots going to get caught on top? yes it will never stop!
It will when we aren't allowed to fly anymore.

Should they be prepared for an emergency? yes!
I agree. Real preparation in how to avoid and deal with emergencies, including the proper equipment for the type flying you plan to do...

The folks that fly blue bird weather are great.
I have an ATP and fly part 135 in the Pacific NW...I fly in bad weather.

I do not have time or patience to do that? Do I push it some times, yes, will it catch me, I don't know???
Ah...OK???

I have tried to be as prepared and trained as I can be!
You sound as if the idea of being prepared and trained makes you angry...don't fly angry.



OK, so I was responding to the idea of flying over an undercast without a single gyro on board...not an instrument failure or electrical failure or vacuum failure of an instrument equipped aircraft. Pure foolishness.

Of course responding was probably also pure foolishness...just a lower risk form of it.

I have to fly in the morning, so I am going to bed.

Daryl

Thanks, Daryl, I was reminded of something I somehow had forgotten, or at least not having thought so clearly: Redundancy! That's the key word. I know I had somewhat explained it, but the actual key word escaped me.

On a related note to the question of taking chances. I don't intend to, but of course I will at times end up in "marginal conditions", be it for a lack of judgement, or simple because of fast changing weather. I will attempt to have redundancy in the instruments, which will include a (working) compass, gyro and so on, as well as a battery backed up G3X or equivalent. I really can't see why one would want to "chance it" and not be willing to minimise the risk associated with it, should the chance turn out to be an eclatant lack of judgement.

I know for a fact I will make mistakes, but to me, I can minimize the risk by anticipating those mistakes. I also wear a seatbelt in my car, wear a helmet when motorcycling, and if I go out in my rowboat in bad weather, or choose to do a crossing, I wear my lifevest. Not that I expect it to go wrong, but rather that I acknowledge the fact that it just might.

As you can tell, I'm not an optimist. I prefer to consider myself a realist.

LOL, sorry, I somehow read the above posts as if they were in "my" thread.

Well, this was the thread which inspired me, so it was still relevant to me

The Cessna ops manual for my plane has a thorough description of how to decend through a layer using the rudders only to maintain heading. (emergency procedure only if turning back is not an option)

I can't recall the full written description (recommended trim setting and I don't recal seeing the use of flaps). Howevr, I have practiced this method several times under the hood and it works well simulated anyway.

With no gyros and IMC, I would never think of spinning the plane. You may become disoriented and fail to recover or recover so abrubtly that you induce a series of stalls each requiring radical control inputs.

Dayrl
If we ever happen to meet, I hope you will find I am not an angry person.
I love life and live it to the fullest that I can.
I do not base jump, bungee jump or do some of those things as the risk is to much for me!
I was not trying to argue with your thoughts on VFR flying .
Redundancy is good!
I quess I did not get the question as stating that a person with a compas and altimeter would be stuck in the soup. I agree if you get there you were not prepared, but if you are there are you could care less about what you should have done, it's time to use what ever you have to save you butt.
Never hope to auger in, that was not my intent of the statement I made, sorry if that was what you got out of it.
Words sometimes are not my best friends.
I do just hate someone telling others that they should not ever do anything because in there opinion they think they should not!
We are responsible for ourselves and if you want to. Help some one go ahead, just be positive about it.
The main thing in life is to do as good as we can, not hurt anyone on purpose, and love as much as you can, share it with as many as possible.
Good day my friend
GT

M6RV6 wrote: the question as stating that a person with a compas and altimeter would be stuck in the soup. I agree if you get there you were not prepared, but if you are there are you could care less about what you should have done, it's time to use what ever you have to save you butt.

Every outfit I worked for up north taught no-gyro descents in groundschool, initial flight training and checkrides, and during annual re-currency flight training. And they did it for a reason. I can't even begin to remember the number of vacuum failures, total electrical failures, and instrument failures that happened over the years. And on occasion, all at the same time. Cold breaks shit, especially gyros, and red flags that freeze and don't drop when an electrical instrument fails tried to kill me more than once. Being in a no-gyro airplane while IMC was an everyday possibility.

So what do you guys suggest? Too dangerous, and stop all aviation in cold, bad weather climates except for warm, CAVU days? Or train for equipment failures, and have the techniques stored in your bag of tricks for when you need it?

Gump

GT,

thanks for the sentiment. Sometimes on these posts I come off sounding like a flight instructor, probably because I am one. That tone is something I am going to change. I am someone who is naturally optimistic and will go off with minimal preparation and "wing it" and usually do well. When I started doing things as an adult that where inherently dangerous, like firefighting, motorcycling, and flying, I came to understand this was a personality trait that would kill me (and worse kill someone else with me) unless I met it head on. So, in myself (and my students) I have no tolerance for half-cocked flying. I love flying old Cubs and Champs that have no electrical systems and often no gyro instruments. I just think that they are strictly fair weather aircraft. I also "like" flying in challenging weather. I just think that setting yourself up to have no real option when the weather deteriorates and continuing on into it is foolish flying.

Daryl

GumpAir wrote:

M6RV6 wrote: the question as stating that a person with a compas and altimeter would be stuck in the soup. I agree if you get there you were not prepared, but if you are there are you could care less about what you should have done, it's time to use what ever you have to save you butt.

Every outfit I worked for up north taught no-gyro descents in groundschool, initial flight training and checkrides, and during annual re-currency flight training. And they did it for a reason. I can't even begin to remember the number of vacuum failures, total electrical failures, and instrument failures that happened over the years. And on occasion, all at the same time. Cold breaks shit, especially gyros, and red flags that freeze and don't drop when an electrical instrument fails tried to kill me more than once. Being in a no-gyro airplane while IMC was an everyday possibility.

So what do you guys suggest? Too dangerous, and stop all aviation in cold, bad weather climates except for warm, CAVU days? Or train for equipment failures, and have the techniques stored in your bag of tricks for when you need it?

Gump

Simple....G 1000 ....no moving parts

Or needle ball and airspeed. I never had a turn coordinator give up, but it happens. Cold is hard on everything and everybody. -40 in a Cub all day is brutal, especially cause you dont see much country.....

MTV

mtv wrote:Or needle ball and airspeed. I never had a turn coordinator give up, but it happens. Cold is hard on everything and everybody. -40 in a Cub all day is brutal, especially cause you dont see much country.....

Oh yeah they fail, and they're really sneaky how they do it. Dangerous sneaky.

I was flying a Sled into Kivalina (kinda like, "This one time, at band camp...") Winter morning, colder than shit, like -35 to -40 cold, low overcast and lots of freezing fog along the coast. Flyable, but just a really shitty day. I came over the hills from Noatak, and dropped down and made ground contact a few miles east of the village to set my altimeter and work my way in. I had maybe 100 foot of ceiling and a mile vis was a great big lie.

I found the airstrip OK, but my angle was off, and as I crossed the end of the runway I couldn't line up well enough to turn and land. So, like I'd done hundreds of times before, I crossed the strip, which sits right on the water's edge along the Chukchi Sea, and planned on a short climb and a couple of timed turns in the soup to line me up better for a landing.

As soon as I crossed the shoreline and out onto the pack ice I knew I was in big trouble. Visibility was nil, which was a non-event as we did this every day on the gauges, and it was just how we flew. But as soon as I made the transition from ground contact to an instrument scan, I knew something wasn't right. Instant adrenaline burn in the pit of the stomach, and a huge "Oh Shit" feeling.

Took about a second to find out why I was messed up. Attitude indicator said I was in a climbing turn, and the turn-coordinator was straight up and down. No red flags showing, and vacuum gauge was normal. All while in the fog, a few feet over the frozen ocean, moving at 100 MPH, and I knew if I didn't figure it out real quick, I was going to splatter myself in just a second or two.

Well, figure it out I did. Attitude Indicator, DG, and compass all said I was turning, so I figured it was three-to-one on who was lying to me. So I covered up the turn-coordinator, and finished my landing as usual. When I got back to Kotz we pulled the gauge, and it wasn't till we shook it, that the red flag would drop. Musta been some moisture in there that froze and locked it up.

Gump

Gump,

look back to the original post...

the guy has no instrument skills, by his own admission, and the aircraft has no gyros on board. I responded to that scenario. When you were doing your AK flying would you have started out on a bad weather flight without any gyros? Yes, stuff breaks and a pilot should have a plan B. Did you ever have your electrical system and your vacuum go on the same flight? Then you were lucky and skillful to survive. Would you purposely put yourself in that situation...on top with no gyros? And with little experience? That is what the original poster was asking. I say don't do that.

Daryl

littlewheelinback wrote:Gump,

look back to the original post...

the guy has no instrument skills, by his own admission, and the aircraft has no gyros on board. I responded to that scenario. When you were doing your AK flying would you have started out on a bad weather flight without any gyros? Yes, stuff breaks and a pilot should have a plan B. Did you ever have your electrical system and your vacuum go on the same flight? Then you were lucky and skillful to survive. Would you purposely put yourself in that situation...on top with no gyros? And with little experience? That is what the original poster was asking. I say don't do that.

Daryl

Hey Daryl.

I have had both vacuum pump and voltage regulator fail on the same flight. Just wasn't a dark IMC night when it happened, so it was not an issue other that lost $$$ and flight hours waiting for parts. You ever had a flying day where you just watch bad shit start snowballing? Bad Ju-Ju, and I stay parked when that stuff starts.

LittleCub's post asked about "save your ass" technique, not "avoid the situation" as I read it, so that's why I wrote down what I was taught. My feeling is that one can never have too many flying tidbits stored for emergency use. You just never know when something bad might happen, and what tip will pop up in your head, remembered from a story someone who had lived through the same thing told you.

Gump

Gump,

Fair enough. I felt that littlecub was throwing it out there what he was planning to do. It isn't a reasonable practice and he should be discouraged from doing it. As an experienced guy and one who less experienced pilots go to for advice, wouldn't it be better to let him feel like "real bush pilots" like you would think twice about taking a no gyro plane out over the top of hard IFR conditions?

Anyway...good flying

Daryl

No, littlecub wasn't planning to do anything of the sort.
I have been around flying since the 60s and have heard variations on these techniques many times through the earlier years and on occasion from instructors, and the spin topic brought that old technique (real old, evidently) to mind that I hadn't heard discussed in about a couple of decades.... (mentioned that in "I started to post in the spin recovery topic"....)
Anymore I am a fair weather pilot, anyway. Anything less than CAVU I tend to turn tail.
Thought I would bring it up to find out the REAL DEAL. Figured we could ALL benefit from the fruit of the discussion.
We have some sharp minds here that have been combined with real world experience, and I really appreciate them sharing their expertise with those of us who have 'dabbled' in aviation (compared to them).

Thanks, Gump.

lc

Comment-I guess I should have specified-No 'functioning' gyros....
The assumption seems to be that I fly a cub, have no gyros, and asked the question, therefore I'm an idiot. Not completely so...