Backcountry Pilot • Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

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Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

I'm learning a bunch about C180 props browsing the forums (mostly BCP and SC.org), but I still haven't found an authoritative difference between the O-470 McCauley prop/hub options (lots of opinions though).

I'm just looking at 2 blade McCauley seaplane style: 86"-88"

I see most are approved on diff fuselages (180/182/185) with different engines (470/520/550) and with different STCs or by the respective TCDS
Is there some advantage/disadvantage to the different hubs or blades?
Threaded or non-threaded, grease or oil filled, sealed, lighter or heavier/stronger? Looks like there is a .5 deg pitch difference...

Old ones
C58
C66
New ones
C201
C203
C204

There sure seems to be a lot of questions and confusion and more importantly interest around the subject though.
Perhaps a single thread could be collaborated with hard data/specs (Any prop shop guys on here?) and then everyone can debate which one they like most or wish they had

Thanks in advance.
I am trying to wade through all the options. Looks like most any type can be put on a 180 with a 470 if you pay off the right guy 8)
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

Alaskan Tin Can,

I'm not sure that I'm an authority by any stretch of the imagination, but I did work on McCauley propellers for more years than I care to remember. I'm going off memory here, and apologize in advance for any erroneous information.

The C58 and C66 have the exact model of blades. (90AT-X) The C58 can be restamped by a propeller shop as a C98, with the addition of the dual spring pack for sprayer operations and other minor details. (pitch settings) The C66 is the same hub as a C50, with the exception that you run 90A-X blades. The 90AT and 90A blades are very near identical. In fact, they have the same width and thickness minimums.

The C58 is doweled for the 520 engine, the C66 for the 470. With field approvals, both have been successfully run on PPonk engines. They may be older props, but these things are great for taking a prop strike. Where a newer style (C200 series) blade have the butt doweled for the actuating pin (base), these older blades have a steel ferrule that screws on to the threaded blade. These blades are much easier to straighten for a prop shop. At least they were for me.

Because the C58 and C66 are doweled differently, the spinner/backing plate combinations are not the same. I saw many more C58 hubs fail Eddy Current Inspection as opposed to C66, due to the fact the C58 had higher horsepower to it. C98's in a crop duster were cracked quite often.

The steel ferrule threaded on these blades can be used a maximum of 4 times. It is removed for inspection at overhaul and never reused on the same blade. It would be impossible because of the high torque required to get it back in the exact position required. A different ferrule is torqued on the blade and then indexed and drilled in a jig/fixture. The new hole for the actuating pin must be a minimum of 1 inch edge distance from another previously drilled hole. The ferrules are becoming extremely rare, and these props take much more time to overhaul and assemble. While there is nothing wrong with them, I question buying old school when you will eventually be paying the price.

The C201 and C203 are the exact same hub and are totally interchangeable by a propeller repair station.

The C201 had 90DA-X blades, where the C203 has 90DCA-X blades. The C203 in my estimation is worth slightly more.

It is a similar comparison between the C50 and C66 older threaded style blades mentioned in first paragraph. The blades are basically the exact same. I won't point out the difference here, as the difference is only something you could discover in a prop shop setting. For all intent and purposes, there is no difference performance wise between a C201 and C203 propeller.

The C204 is again a different prop. It takes 90DCB-X blades. The hub is doweled yet again differently. It is designed for the U engine, which turns 2400 RPM. As a result, where these blades are similar in many ways to the 90DA and 90DCA blades mentioned above, the butt of the blade itself is doweled and pinned differently in relation to the blade angles. The reason for this, is because it was designed for a slower turning application, the low pitch setting is much steeper. You will notice on the McCauley application guide, that a full length seaplane prop for a U engined airplane is 90" typically. If my memory serves me correctly this could only be cut back to 88.5 in a seaplane application for repairs. I believe North West Propeller in Washington has an STC to run a 204 in place of a C201 or C203, but I never recommended it, due to the fact it required a different spinner/backing plate combination and it was necessary to have the low pitch stop changed in the cylinder to accommodate the different low stop angle required to turn to the higher rpm required by those engines in relation to the slower turning U (2400).

Now for the oil-fill versus non-oil filled 2 bladed threaded propellers.
I doubt if there are any C58 or C66 propellers out there any more that have not been oil-filled. It was a great mod over the grease. There is a continual lubrication of the bearings/races. They do often times leak as the o ring tries to work itself out where the two notches in each end of the hub are that the lock ring fits into. red dye is added to the oil to differentiate between engine oil. It's supposed to be an aid in the crack detection of the propeller.

Non oil versus oil filled 2 bladed threadless propellers (C200 series)
I don't think I would buy a used 2 blade that hadn't been oil-filled. The oil-fill modification kit is very expensive, even for a prop shop. While these props are much easier to overhaul than the threaded series, it still gets pretty expensive to overhaul and oil-fill. Add that on to your initial purchase cost and you just as well buy new. It doesn't take very many years for the grease to break down in a grease filled prop (non-oil filled) and pretty soon its making a mess everywhere. They don't heal themselves and pretty soon you swear its oil coming out, which it basically has become.

I love the C203 oil-filled propeller with the slick new balance ring and the modern McCauley blade decals. (I hated the flying brick)
I'm putting one on my 1960 Cessna 182C, currently a work in progress. It has a great history, I have ridden behind it to many a "Maule Only Strip" :) in the Frank Church Wilderness with the "Flying Hawkes". It wouldn't work on his PPonk Backcountry Tamer, but it's been there and done that. A great propeller!

I hope I have not added to any confusion out there.

Richard
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

I asked Dick Jacobs at NW Prop about the different low-pitch specs for the different McCauley props. He told me that besides being slightly different blade designs, the blade angle is not always measured at the same station. So blade angle spec differences are somewhat irrelevant. I also asked him about which was the hardest puller between the C203 and the older C66 / C50 / C29's, and he said he didn't think there was a helluva lot of difference between any of them.

I had a short (80-1/2) C203 82 incher, had been looking for an 88" C203 to replace it but couldn't find one. I did find a run-out C201 last summer with no logbook that I bought as a core for a grand. I had it OH'd at AC Prop in Seattle-- OH was about $2500, and modifying to oil-filled hub (required by service bulletin) was another $1500 or so. I believe the C201 & C203 use the same basic hub, just the blades are different (DA vs DCA).
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

Digging up and old thread.

Does anyone know how to determine if a 203 hub is oil filled vs grease by looking at it?
Also, can you re-grease one without taking it to a shop?

I have a C203-B with 440 smoh (2001) that has sat for a few years. Looks near new but the shop wants $4,800 to overhaul. I’d rather not have to pay that if I don’t have to.

Worst case, fly it and see if it slings grease??
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

About 4 years ago, I bought a high-time grease-filled C201 prop.
Took it to the local prop shop and had it overhauled.
Per the Mac OH manual, they had to convert it to oil filled.
I seem to recall that they restamped the hub to reflect that it was converted to oil filled,
but not sure just how.
My overhaul invoice refers to it as a "2A34C201-XC".
My Mac operators manual indicates that the last two characters "indicate minor changes not effecting eligibility or interchangeability".

FWIW the breakdown on the invoice for the overhaul was:
labor...……….1,785
seal kit...………966
carriers ………...47
oil fill kit...……..955
machine hub ...230
total...……...$3,982 + tax

Keep in mind that this was 4 years ago, so the price you were quoted (if it includes converting to oil filled) doesn't seem too out of line IMHO.
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

The “C” at the end is what designates it oil filled.
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

Look for the oil plug in the side of the hub. Your Local prop shop should be able to regrease it for you. Very simple, for a proficient repairman to accomplish in just a few hours. It's even done easily on the aircraft. Cylinder comes off, 2 roll pins are driven out of the piston assembly, it pulls our as a unit. Blade actuating pin/bases are safetied, cut and remove the two screws. The blade you are removing must be pointed down to the ground. Carefully with snap ring pliers remove the big external snap ring, only spreading enough to get out of groove. (Tape plastic on blade so you don't scratch.) It's easy to spread the snap ring too much, making it junk.

Next part is tricky, gently push up on tip of blade with one hand, the other reaches in and holds the inboard race down while the two split retainers are pushed up. Takes practices how much , but they slip out and you pull them out. Blade can then drop out, assuming you didn't lose any bearings.

Next install two tongue depressers at 90 degrees to each other inside the hub, holding the bearing races together. They fit perfectly and you will do the same process on installation after greasing.

There are two different sizes of ball bearings and spacers, depending on the age of the prop and bearing race size.. Count them and make absolutely sure you have the same number going back. Rotate prop and do same with other blade.

Remove all bearings and spacers, keep track of the inboard races, they can be removed through the slots in hub. Outboard race is pressed in, don't remove.

Much simpler than it sounds. Very very easy to accomplish. I still wake up now and then, having done one in my sleep. But the Aeroshell 5 grease does break down after just a few years, so if it isn't leaking now, it will soon, Replace the blade O rings in the hub while you are in there. A walk in the park....
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

Thanks for the replies.
Although the re-grease sounds straight forward, I'm assuming only a prop shop is allowed to perform it and it's not something an A&P can do.

Is there any damage in flying the prop until it starts to sling grease?
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

I need an opinion...(well, we all know what those are like!). However...

I have a grease filled prop on my 182. It’s a 2A34C203-B. It’s been on the plane for 20 years but only has about 300 hrs on it, the prop shop (Precision Propeller) wants $2000 to rebuild it. $1000 for the general refurbish and $1000 more because they have to convert it from grease to oil. It’s got a 1000 hr TBO. It doesn’t throw any grease out. My mechanic says to just fly it and not worry about it. (Part 91 only) The blade model is G-90DCA-8...or is that supposed to be an “X”at the end? I saw the X suffix in this thread but mine could be an X that was written incorrectly as an 8. I don’t know. From the blade number above, does that indicate it’s a 90” prop.
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

FWIW a few years ago I bought a used 88" C201 prop.
Seller had lost the logbooks, but thought it was pretty well timed out,
so got a pretty good price on it.
Took it down to AC Prop in Seattle for overhaul-- total was about $4K.
Just the kit to convert to oil-filled was $995,
so 2 grand to "refurbish" & convert yours sounds like a bargain.

FWIW I understand that a McCauley service letter requires converting them to oil filled at overhaul time,
and possibly at any servicing.
Last edited by hotrod180 on Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

BirdyinBOI wrote:I need an opinion...(well, we all know what those are like!). However...

I have a grease filled prop on my 182. It’s a 2A34C203-B. It’s been on the plane for 20 years but only has about 300 hrs on it, the prop shop (Precision Propeller) wants $2000 to rebuild it. $1000 for the general refurbish and $1000 more because they have to convert it from grease to oil. It’s got a 1000 hr TBO. It doesn’t throw any grease out. My mechanic says to just fly it and not worry about it. (Part 91 only) The blade model is G-90DCA-8...or is that supposed to be an “X”at the end? I saw the X suffix in this thread but mine could be an X that was written incorrectly as an 8. I don’t know. From the blade number above, does that indicate it’s a 90” prop.


The -8 means it's a 90" prop cut down 8", so it's actually an 82" prop.
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

I’d listen to your mechanic and just run it.

Precision is a good outfit. I’m sending my prop to them soon. The price they quoted you seems pretty fair to me.
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

Your last lines are correct hotrod.
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

I can't remember how log you've had your 182, but if you haven't had any prop issues I think I'd be inclined to just run it also.
I think the main concern with 300 hours on it over 20 years would be corrosion inside the hub.
Very possible that a $2K "general refurb" would turn into quite a bit more if there are any internal issues.
But then again, it'll be nice for your peace of mind knowing that everything's shipshape.
Looking at my 1981 McCauley operators manual, they consider the TBO on the 200 series props to be 1500 hours or 5 years,
whichever comes first.
I think I recall reading somewhere that the TBO gets bumped up some after converting to oil filled.
Last edited by hotrod180 on Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

Little bit of thread drift here, but I have a real nice 88" C66 for sale if anyone is interested. $5K + shipping. It is in a crate. I bought to be a spare, and hope that I won't be needing it in the future.
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

If you really want to know what your prop is, or, want information on what to do with the prop call the manufacturer. They have all the records as build, the blade dimensions etc. Both Hartzell and McCauley have tech support and they are very generous with their time. There is way more information about props hubs and spinners than one can imagine. They also will have all the paperwork and any subsequent information about the model prop than many knows exist that they will walk you through.

I just went through this with a prop that I bought for my plane. In my case it was a Hartzell, I can say they saved me a lot of time and possible anguish.
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

Considering putting my 2 blade seaplane prop back on my 180 with pponk to reduce nose weight.

Does anyone know if there's anyone doing field approvals on these in the Seattle Area?
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

What model prop is it?
I'd suggest calling Steve Knopp & talking to him about it.
But he is (somewhat) retired, dunno how interested he is in doing any work or even talking about it.
Or call the folks who bought the STC from Knopp, NorthPoint Aviation in MN.
FWIW it's now called the "470XP".
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

The 83" 2-blade 'Expedition Series" composite prop from MT performs equal to the 88" mac at 46lbs, no AD's erosion or life limits. About $15K.
https://www.mcfarlaneaviation.com/media ... asheet.pdf

Cheers,
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Re: Cessna 180: McCauley Seaplane Prop and Hub Differences

I'm sure liking my 2 blade MT on the Pponk I just installed on my 180K. The prop is ten and a half years old but still looks good. It has been pampered by living in a hangar and no gravel bars.
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