Zzz wrote:Was just reading through 91.319 looking for the bit about flying experimentals over populated areas. I always thought it was limited only to Phase 1 testing, which seems fair, but as I read it, it sounds pretty clear.

In the cities I've lived in with Class C airspace, I've never been aware of approach control hassling any experimental for flying over the densely populated city that surrounds the primary airport. Has anyone else seen this enforced?

It's never been an issue, once i have my permanent airworthiness cert., I use 1,000' as my altitude floor when smack over the middle of town, and have reported just that to the tower countless times and they have never said anything. This is both local and else where. The rest of the time it seems to depend on your interpretation of what constitutes a heavily built up area versus one that is not. I really can't see the issue as any kind of drawback to being experimental, in practice it's just not. I'm not surprised the feds got that in there, it covers their butt, but I have NEVER heard of any experimental being called out on it.

Zzz wrote:In the cities I've lived in with Class C airspace, I've never been aware of approach control hassling any experimental for flying over the densely populated city that surrounds the primary airport. Has anyone else seen this enforced?

I'm with you. And I've never heard:

"Tower, Experimental 123456 with you for landing"

"Oh my god! It's an Experimental! Quick! Clear the airspace for 20 miles and roll out the crash trucks! And hide the children!"

But I rarely fly into towered airports so maybe I'm just not hearing this.

Barnstormer wrote:And I've never heard:

"Tower, Experimental 123456 with you for landing"

"Oh my god! It's an Experimental! Quick! Clear the airspace for 20 miles and roll out the crash trucks! And hide the children!"

Maybe because they've never seen my build quality...

Zzz wrote:Was just reading through 91.319 looking for the bit about flying experimentals over populated areas. I always thought it was limited only to Phase 1 testing, which seems fair, but as I read it, it sounds pretty clear.

In the cities I've lived in with Class C airspace, I've never been aware of approach control hassling any experimental for flying over the densely populated city that surrounds the primary airport. Has anyone else seen this enforced?

They are pretty clear about it here, ATC wont enforce it at all - it's the pilot's responsibility to let ATC know if they try to vector you over the city.

Over here they got around that in a different way.
Once Phase 1 is complete, they revoke your EXP CoA, and issue a Special Category - Amateur Built CoA - which separates all the 'proven' AB aircraft from all the ones which is being test flown, and allows your AB to behave like any other GA aircraft.

You know this thread has given me a lot to think about, I have been working on buying an airplane for quite a while now, and I have had my eye on a 58 182 that belongs to a friend. It's a good little aircraft, but I can see where it could cost me a lot to own despite being cheap to purchase.

Lots of threads in this forum about airplane ownership. What I've been telling people for years is take the purchase price, multiply it by 1 1/2, and if you don't have that money handy right now, don't buy. There are no guarantees that what seems like a nice airplane will not still cost lots more than what you expect, really soon after purchase.

The only problem with my long term advice is that I think it should be 2 x rather than 1 1/2 x. Not to sound too discouraging, but that's just based on my personal experience, FWIW.

Cary

Multiply by 100X and it still won't be enough!

Stol wrote:After owning a few certifies planes over the past few decades, you can see why ALOT of us have switched to EXPERIMENTALS..

Ah-yup. I'm on experimental number 2. Never going back to certified.

I just bought a 180. Love it, but the sticker shock for replacement parts has me reeling. I needed to replace a rudder/tailwheel bellcrank. The little built up sheet metal part costs 2k each.

So the two alternative options are fabricate an owner produced part or new part with appropriate engineer and ia sign-offs. Being an aero structures engineer and in the process for applying for a DER cert I went with the later. The part cost me 400 and is one piece machined. The report is written and my DER buddy signed it off. I'm in the process of getting an stc for follow on parts. Will post in a few months when that happens.

My question is who is paying these outrageous prices? Even if you have the cash or don't want to make an owner part I or some other engineer would be happy to reverse engineer a part like that and still be less than half the cost. Are these really selling?

BTW... Thanks for the original post. My xr6085 rheostat was inop when I bought the plane and will soon be replaced with a maxpulse.

I have three Cessna aircraft, two that are disassembled rebuild projects and one flying "project". I have bought all the parts up to this point off of craigslist, alaskalist, eBay and from the local salvage guy. Only once have I been disappointed when I bought a rudder, elevator and stabilizers from out of state for my Cessna 120. I saw the ad on craigslist, called and talked to the guy, asked all sorts of questions, looked at pictures and was assured the parts were in very good shape. The crating and shipping was the most expensive part and when I got the parts they were below average condition and when I called the seller on it he claimed all the damage must have occurred during shipping. Yea right.

All the other dozens of parts have been exactly as advertised and a huge savings over the factory prices. I can't imagine buying new Cessna parts myself. Our local salvage guy is real good and has very reasonable prices so I would definiatly recommend shopping around with salvage businesses.

Recreationally, I can see a point to homebuild. Having used Cessnas 100 hours per month for nine years, however, I have to defend their dependability, reliability,and parts availability. They are by far the most successful airplane in the patrol business.

When Textron first bough Beech resulting in one company owning Cessna and Beech, I joked that now everyone will get Beechcraft prices and Cessna quality. Unfortunately, this has become reality not a joke.

My most recent experiences with Cessna parts prices (from Cessna) were these:
>to replace the upper door hinge was going to be $600, for essentially one that is no more complicated than a $10 gate hinge at Home Depot. My IA was able to get one from a wreck--don't recall the cost, but not bad.
>to replace the prop control cable was going to be close to $1000. The new one my IA got from McFarlane was still expensive, but $300 is a lot better than a full AMU.

My fave, though, was to replace the window latch on the pilot side. When I bought the airplane, the rotating latch's button was jammed in and didn't lock, so periodically the latch would rotate on its own and the window would pop open. I asked my IA back then to see what one would cost, and it was in the neighborhood of $500. So I contacted Preferred Airparts, and their price was $260, but first I'd have to provide the airplane's serial number--they wouldn't go by my description. So for that money, I lived with it. Then I read on a forum (maybe this one, I don't recall) that some automobile parts were the same, so I started looking online for "push button window locks". On the Chevs of the 40s online catalog, I found one that looked exactly like mine, for a 49 Chevy passenger car. I took the chance: $29 including shipping, arrived in 3 days, brand new, and took me 15-20 minutes to replace (I'm a klutz as a mechanic). Interestingly, the casting marks on the new one are exactly the same as the one I took off!

So yeah, the manufacturers are as guilty as anyone of damaging GA. I agree with Jim (Contact) that Cessna has built some really solid, reliable airplanes, but they not only charge too much for completed versions, but they are outrageous with their replacement parts. I have a friend who had to have his Cardinal's firewall replaced--$11,000 for the part and labor, and much of that was for the part--and the holes still didn't match the original one. If my airplane had cost $369,000 (current 172 prices) in 1962 dollars, it would have cost $45,685 back then. But it was right around $15,000. On that basis, the 2017 172 should cost more like $120,000.

Cary

Just priced out a stall warner for a 64 C172. $2100 for that little micro switch on the wing! Be very gentle with them!

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contactflying wrote:Having used Cessnas 100 hours per month for nine years, however, I have to defend their dependability, reliability,and parts availability. They are by far the most successful airplane in the patrol business.

At those prices, you would expect nothing less...

Having never paid more than $15,000 for any of my own airplanes, I can't fathom the prices you pay these days. When they got expensive, I just started flying other people's airplanes. Unless you are working them, they are a tremendously expensive luxury.

SkyLarkin wrote:I have three Cessna aircraft, two that are disassembled rebuild projects and one flying "project". I have bought all the parts up to this point off of craigslist, alaskalist, eBay and from the local salvage guy. Only once have I been disappointed when I bought a rudder, elevator and stabilizers from out of state for my Cessna 120. I saw the ad on craigslist, called and talked to the guy, asked all sorts of questions, looked at pictures and was assured the parts were in very good shape. The crating and shipping was the most expensive part and when I got the parts they were below average condition and when I called the seller on it he claimed all the damage must have occurred during shipping. Yea right.

All the other dozens of parts have been exactly as advertised and a huge savings over the factory prices. I can't imagine buying new Cessna parts myself. Our local salvage guy is real good and has very reasonable prices so I would definiatly recommend shopping around with salvage businesses.

This is a great attitude, and way to both handle the cost of flying certified, as well as getting to know the nuts and bolt of it. I suspect your 'local salvage guy' has a name that starts with D, and ends with e

I try oh so hard not to lament the cost of flying in general, let alone the cost of flying certified... I mean really... we all knew this was an expensive endeavor when we started.

When sticker shock tries to ruin my day I have an easy three step plan to put it all in to perspective, and remind me not to be such a negative nelly. it goes like this;

I get in an airplane and fly up the colorado river on the Arizona side. Mostly because California is a ruined state, and I am on a healing mission.
The amazing river scenery is breath taking as usual. I will see wild burros and desert bighorns. A magic carpet ride that sooo many people can't even conceive, let alone experience. Along the way I will pass Lakes Havasu, Mojave, and maybe even Mead... and at every one of these the canyons and and crannies will be packed with boats... Ya, there will be a few fishing boats (not exactly cheap) and even a few ski boats (also not exactly cheap) but then there will be TONS of big boys, big boys with big names Like Nordic, Warlock, Eliminator, and bigger meaner ones too,all with price tags in keeping with a top of the line X Cub. Boats that were towed there by trucks that cost as much as a decent C180, or motor homes priced equal to yet another X cub Every one burns more fuel, makes more commotion, and will guaranteed, depreciate at a far heavier rate. In fact in 60 years every one of those will likely be near worthless, probably the motor homes too. Those boats should come with wings...

And as I realize that they are not on a magic carpet ride, I begin to crack a smile... but the day is moving on, so I circle around and fly the Kalifornia side back down. On the Kalifornia side I recall my sister struggling to buy a starter home. It took her almost in to her forties to get it done... and the $600 K that the starter homes were going for in her area would have bought her a ranch in my neigborhood... man houses should come with wings

I decide to fly over Glamis, the center piece of the Imperial sand dunes. I grew up riding in the Glamis area, and later when it became a jam packed zoo, I moved on further south to Oglibe, Gordon's well, and finally Buttercup Valley... any further south and you'd be in Mexico... but that wasn't a problem back then. In fact back then a days fun ride would frequently have you drinking at the bar in Glamis early in the day, and drinking at a bar in mexico later that afternoon... but I digress...

Flying over the dunes I see all the big boy toys.Sand rails that would make some race cars seam like old lady economy sedans. Many can do 100 mph on the sand now days, with impressive suspensions that were born of off road racing. These guys are why I left the dunes really, but they're soo cool to watch. I can't imagine owning one though, as most cost twice what I paid for my C180... and so far, no suspension in the world can match that 'magic carpet ride' ...poor bastards.... as I buzz one running down 'sand highway' I can see the envy in the drivers eyes. He is driving the baddest rail on the sand that day, and he just had his 'Lion King' crown removed I really wasn't trying to humble him There's just something magical about this ride.... turning away from the rail I realize that he probably thinks I'm rich, because I'm a pilot.... HA! man this airplane is starting to feel like such a good deal....

Awe crappie..... My boys are supposed to be by for lunch... They are gear heads. One has an immaculately restored 1957 Monterey, the other a 1951 Crown vic. There mission is to strike the motivation back in to me to get after my '51 Cranbrook.... There cars are immaculate, worth as much as a 60 year old airplane I guess? They should come with wings...

But you know what? when I price NOS parts for my 60 year old ground bound beater... Well heck, I think Cessna must have made them... for a certified airplane probably... lol

I just can't understand how much better of a deal owning a certified airplane is? I think I'm going to stick that Plymouth out as yard art and get back in the cub....

Life is good! and the cost of flying? heck... it ain't so bad after all

Take care, Rob

Right on brother ! Well put.

Great post Rob!

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The nice thing about Cessna prices is they make the maule prices easier to swallow.

I reminds me of when I was a kid and drove a Fiat sports car. The good thing about British Leyland cars (MG, Triumph, Rover etc.) was that they made my Fiat seem relaible.