Cary wrote:

contactflying wrote:Since there seems to be some interest in mountain flying clinics, without pyro and Crocodile Dundee types, I challenge instructors on this site to join with me to pitch a free mountain flying clinic. Donations could go to BCP or charity of choice.

Colorado Pilots Association already has mountain flying clinic--not free, though, but it is open to all pilots--$185 for CPA members, $200 for non-members. It's typically held at KBJC twice a year, early June and early September. Here's some information: http://coloradopilots.org/mtnfly_class.asp

Cary

I took the course this spring and it is top notch and well worth the time and money.

That said, the instruction and instructors are very direct that there is no training for off-airport ops and the minimum plane to fly the course with is a 180HP+; very much a fly OVER the mountains, not fly THROUGH the mountains type of training. I understand/understood the position and there were lots of big fast planes in attendance so it suited the audience very well. All of the information was very applicable to my "lightweight" planes of choice (Cubs, Citabrias, etc).

I have always taught the "in the mountains" stuff because I never had a big engine. What few students who came with a big engine, I taught "in the mountains" stuff. It was just a little harder to get the natural energy concept across with the big engine. A few times not being able to get a 182 over a high pass going west were helpful, however.

The CPA course is very good, and will give you the information you need to make good decisions as you venture into more of the "through" flying.... which you can do on your own slowly.

Anarchisto,

Sounds good. Do they teach avoidance or use of natural energy like thermals and ridge lift with small airplanes?

Jim

They teach use of thermal and orographic lift and avoidance of hazards like rotor etc - but I didn't do my actual flying with a CPA instructor. I just did the CPA ground school.

I did it with my own CFI - and we got down reasonably low - but we do that anyway.

Neither of which is anywhere near as useful as a glider checkout. Anyone serious about mountain and backcountry flying should look into that. Even if you don't fly gliders - the weather and energy management skills seem like they would be invaluable to me.

That being said, I love your challenge of putting together a course. Always more to learn. But I'm not a CFI yet. Perhaps at the next JC fly-in?

contactflying wrote:Anarchisto,

Sounds good. Do they teach avoidance or use of natural energy like thermals and ridge lift with small airplanes?

Jim

I always wanted to get glider training, but never got around to it. My last pipeline patrol loop ran through New Mexico and Colorado and I was stationed at Moriarty so I finally looked into it. Very expensive. I was doing the ground, grunt work when not on the pipeline and waiting for a part time tow gig. Then the windscreen blew out of Uncle Rick's (Brenco) C-172 and I lost sight in an eye. Couldn't afford the expense of a waiver from KC FSDO. Success rate there almost zero percent there. When I crashed that ultralight, they emergency suspended my commercial. So it goes.

The difference I see in low powered mountain flying is the way thermals are used. We're too fast to circle, but they work well when we fly slow in updrafts and fast through downdrafts. The slick, high tech glider guys said they do the same when going for distance. When ridge riding, I think they don't like to work as low as we do. I have found the best ridge lift as low and as close to the ridge as possible, with an energy turn down drainage for an emergency out. I have found it very unproductive, with small airplanes, trying to get up high before approaching the high mountains. If we thermal up, we fight the strong headwind on westerly headings. Ridge riding from high altitude doesn't work. We don't get the lift benefit unless we ride the ridge from the bottom all the way up the side of the mountain.

that's all good - but climbing up through rotor really, really sucks - especially in a plane as light as a j3. If you have a tailwind, staying low and riding the free lift up the terrain is a great idea. In a headwind - best to battle it out far away from the ridges - or maneuver so it's quartering.

It all depends on the direction/magnitude of the wind and the direction you are trying to travel. No size fits all. I think you need a quiver of skills and wisdom of how and when to apply.

I don't have a lot of experience, but I do see all the glider guys getting hard ons on the days the powered guys are hangar flying. They know something we don't. It smells like free energy.

In nature, the tactical situation is always fluid. I've gotten beaten up in planes the size of yours many times in my youth. My old back couldn't take so much of that now. However, that was when I got the best free ride up.

Would anybody be interested in ridge riding and powered thermalling in a low powered airplane in the spring? I could stay with my son in Denver a couple of days. If you have a small airplane, you can do it with your own power cheaper than being towed up in a glider.

I wish I was closer, I would be all over that offer. Northern B.C. is a bit of a journey. Great offer though.

I'd consider a better locale. The western slope offers a lot better ridge and thermal flying. I've spent a lot of fun times with the engine off on the Pacer over Grand Mesa, West Elks, and the Bookcliffs based out of GJT.

lesuther is right - we are in the lee for the most part here in the winter - though there is plenty of lift to be had here in the summer its a harsh ride and you fight for small columns of rising air with the many gliders here

That being said Jim, I'll fly with you again any time. Come on out. Maybe I'll make it your way some day soon and for some "duster-struction"

I'll put my foot down, with my wife, next time we are out. When my other son moves from Virginia back to the home he has kept in Sierra Vista, AZ, that would be a more pleasant training area. Norman Meyers had his C-180 on a fairly short, one way strip near my wife's mother at Aspen Park, west of Denver. All mountains have drainages to get rid of the snow melt. Yes, the front range is a unique situation, but not insurmountable. We don't want it to be so rough that up and down draft frequency is of too short a cycle to manage. Long cycle, fairly smooth ups and downs can be taken advantage of. Fly slow in the ups and fast through the downs. Tight, crooked valleys like up 285 to Meyers field, now a park, are problematic because the downwind ridge may shift from side to side. Even with a C-180, we need to be on the, downwind of the valley, ridge to get the up air. And for safety, we need to be knowledgeable of and practiced up with the energy management, no load factor, turn. It's too tight in there for a shallow or medium bank turn.

contactflying wrote:Norman Meyers had his C-180 on a fairly short, one way strip near my wife's mother at Aspen Park, west of Denver. All mountains have drainages to get rid of the snow melt. Yes, the front range is a unique situation, but not insurmountable. We don't want it to be so rough that up and down draft frequency is of too short a cycle to manage. Long cycle, fairly smooth ups and downs can be taken advantage of. Fly slow in the ups and fast through the downs. Tight, crooked valleys like up 285 to Meyers field, now a park, are problematic because the downwind ridge may shift from side to side. Even with a C-180, we need to be on the, downwind of the valley, ridge to get the up air.

Spent a lot of time driving by Norm's place and seeing his 180 in the hangar at his 8,000' elev airstrip and home. Neat location! Sadly he passed away this last November, the airstrip has been de-registered and the land turned over to the Jefferson County Open space.


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