How about amphibs float time ? Complex time , as 200+ HP and retract.
I heard retract issue of water rudders 200 HP+ may apply to complex time. This maybe a gray area at the discretion of the examiner in review of the logs.

once&futr_alaskaflyer wrote:As for Shebles, my point was if you get what you pay for, then you should pay more somewhere else than Shebles. They are cheap for a reason. Everyone likes the seaplane rating there, sure, but that is a whole different ball of wax than their core operation in Kingman, which is disorganized, chaotic, hit or miss with the instruction - and you found out about their scheduling and accounting 'department' when you called.

My experiences with Shebles started back when a Commercial float rating was about $595, and it took the Old Man or Joe about 30 seconds to determine if you had your shit together or not, then the rest of the day was spent wringing out the airplanes and having fun. Operation size, complexity, and costs are a whole new ball game now.

I did an ATP ride with them too, but it was a bare minimum time, "let's get the show on the road so you can get the certificate and we can get to the beers and barbecue." I didn't really go there to "learn" anything, and didn't really need to for what I was doing at that moment. I really don't know how well their operation does at handling teaching from scratch. From what Mr Willie is saying it sounds like things aren't too squared away in that department.

Gump

I'll have to agree with the positive points about Shebles. I did a COMM/ME with Joe. I'll be the first to admit, you don't really go there to learn, it's a certificate factory, and they don't advertise anything more. There's no time to study, so be sharpo before you go.

The courses are the ablsolute minimum time rwuired by the FARs and consist of flying the chekride several times then flying the exact same scripted checkride with the examiner. They weren't entirely personable with me either, but I wasn't there to gain life long aviation friends either.

I got my rating faster than probably anywhere in the country, and undoubtedy cheaper due to not dragging out the training.

My .02 cents.

Mike-

stearmann4 wrote:I'll have to agree with the positive points about Shebles. I did a COMM/ME with Joe. I'll be the first to admit, you don't really go there to learn, it's a certificate factory, and they don't advertise anything more. There's no time to study, so be sharpo before you go.

The courses are the ablsolute minimum time rwuired by the FARs and consist of flying the chekride several times then flying the exact same scripted checkride with the examiner. They weren't entirely personable with me either, but I wasn't there to gain life long aviation friends either.

I got my rating faster than probably anywhere in the country, and undoubtedy cheaper due to not dragging out the training.

My .02 cents.

Mike-

You hit the nail on the head. My mistake was going there as a new pilot trying to actually learn something.

I suppose if I was just going for a checkride and wanted the added benefit of some time in the desert to thaw out I might consider going back. But I would never go there to learn a primary skill, even seaplane (based on my other experience and discussion with fellow students.)

I know they won't ever, but it would really benefit the consumer to let them know that it's not ideal to expect any sort of quality primary training at Shebles.

I had several hundred hours when I went to them, and well above the FAR required experience for the ratings sought, so it worked out. I wouldn't send my kid to them for anything but an add-on, but definitely not a SES rating that he would actually use. If you're honest with yourself and know you won't use the rating, it's probably a good deal.

Mike-

Well Shebles web site says that you need to have pre work done, written tests done, x amount of hours flown for the ratings done. Before you come to them.

I did the 10 day instrument there, got the rating, however in reality I have pretty hi minumins. No 200 and 1 for me. more like 2000 and 5.

I found them easy to get along with, schedule was done every day, knew what I was doing the next day and with whom I was flying.

I plan on the CSEL/CMEL this spring and going there to do it. In and Out, wham bam, and back to work.

Works for me, just my point of view.

See ya, Bub

The $110 an hour for a complex was noted in Motorcity Maule's post. That is a totally unreasonably low cost for complex training--which was my point.

Here is something to consider, from a CFI's point of view:

You say you don't need ground training, you just need to go fly the 10 hours and get on with life. Really?

Good quality flight training is much more than just sitting in an airplane and logging the requisite hours. EVERY flight should be preceded by a good solid PRE-FLIGHT briefing, discussing what's to be done, the factors and skills involved, etc. THEN and only then should you go fly. AFTER the flight, there should be AT LEAST a half hour or so discussion of what went right, where improvements could be made, and how.

So, now this one and a half hour flight is also associated with 1.5 hours of ground.

If your instructor isn't doing something pretty close to that, you aren't getting very good quality instruction. With a good instructor, you'll learn a lot on the ground as well as in the airplane.

I've been flying a while, and one of the habits I've developed over time is that if I'm taking dual instruction, I want a good pre and post brief. Period. Otherwise I didn't get my money's worth, even if I am taking a company checkride, and did fine on it. This is how we improve, and THAT is why we do training, NOT to simply add a line to a piece of plastic.

Consider this: You are seeking a Commercial pilot certificate. The implication is that you would be able to fly for compensation or hire.

First time you butt up against some crusty company check airman who detects a bit of attitude, you will have a check ride that will blow your socks off...

If I were you, I'd find an outfit that will provide the best, most professional level of training available.

You'll rarely go wrong there.

MTV

mtv wrote:Good quality flight training is much more than just sitting in an airplane and logging the requisite hours. With a good instructor, you'll learn a lot on the ground as well as in the airplane.

If I were you, I'd find an outfit that will provide the best, most professional level of training available.

MTV

You bring up some good points, and I agree with you that training is more than just counting hours.

Right now I've just started working on my instrument rating with dreams of *someday* getting my commercial and possibly CFI ratings. My problem is that I have a finite amount of cash to spend. While I'd love to seek out a master CFII who people come to from all over the country, I don't have the money. Instead, I read as much as I can, fly an inexpensive club plane, when I do fly for fun I have a clear goal in mind (usually precision on headings, altitudes, and speed), and I use a local instructor. Surely there must be a point of diminishing returns between the average local guy and the expensive master CFII? Where would be a good place to cut costs without loosing value?

I brought up the initial post suggesting the Shebles. I say the Shebles because that's exactly what you get. It's a family type place. There are alot of young kids there doing instruction, and they all get treated like one of the family. It can be very hectic feeling if you're not used to a whole lot of kids in your kitchen all at once(litterally)! The pace can be gruelling if you are out of the study habit, as you will probably do ground all morning, get into a plane, come back to more ground, followed by more flying. Most commercial students I saw there started their days at 7:00 am and ended around 8:00 pm...I didn't quite see eye to eye with one of the instructors there once and asked for a different one. Nothing personal, just wanted a different strategy, and they swapped out for me very nicely.

People call it a "paper mill" and some of that is justified, they ram a lot of folks through there in minimal time. But be careful of what you imply with that. I saw a lot of pinks handed out there, if you think their not under the same scrutiny anyone else is your fooling yourself. They can get you through quicker because they expect you to show up with all the "knowledge" down pat, ready to "brush up" and take the ride. This is what I thought the implications were when:

Mister Willie wrote:Yeah I don't need ground instruction... All I need is to go out, log all 10 hours of complex and then get a checkride scheduled.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all checkrides can be done with a designated examiner, in fact the CFI ride is one that can not. In other words, they didn't approve their training methods, a fed did!
Mister Willie, I once cashed out a half a dozen bank accounts over a rude teller, I later realized that I pulled out of a great institution over the poor customer service skills of a really unimportant person in the grand scheme of things. I have nothing to gain in where you train, but would urge you to select your training based on the instructor rather than the minimum wage hired desk clerk ( now watch it be Valerie Sheble that took that call )

The biggest reason I even suggested them is that you implied that you did not need all the training or required hours, as you already had most. Most places I've encountered want to sell you their whole "package" Shebles will give you just what you need, or want, the rest is up to you...

I have met Brian Shanche, and would have suggested him, although I thought Minnesota might have been too far, The SES at Shebles is VERY minimal, again you get what you pay for and Joe Joe will gladly take more of your money to spend more time in the cub / lake with you ...

One final note, Mike is dead on with the piece on minimal training for the commercial ride. Going into professional flight you WILL do this checkride again. You've certainly got things down pat better than I did if you have no complex time now, and need no more than the minimums to be a shit hot rock star!

Good luck on the ticket, and put up a post on your experiences where you train. You weren't the first to ask for good / low budget instruction, and you certainly won't be the last.

Take care, Rob

JRStripe,

So, what makes you think that your local, hometown CFI isn't a rock star in that world? My point wasn't that you have to travel to Mecca to learn from the Master, but rather to find a competent, dedicated instructor who takes that job seriously, and pay them what they're worth. That may be the guy down the street.

One of the best flight instructors I've ever flown with was a nineteen year old aerobatic instructor in a Pitts S-2C. THAT young man had his act together, in pre flight, IN flight, and post flight. AND he could fly the pants off that thing from the front seat... So--also don't let appearances mislead you.

Finally, consider that WHICHEVER flight instructor you choose, at the end of the training, you are asking that person to put THEIR signature in your logbook, certifying to the FAA and the world that YOU have been trained to the Practical Test Standards for the particular rating or certificate level, AND he or she has found you COMPETENT to pass that practical test.

If YOU fail that practical test, it goes on the INSTRUCTOR's record as well as YOURS. And, if you don't believe that airlines, for example, don't look at failures on practical tests with a jaundiced eye, think again. If an instructor logs enough of those in a row, the FAA comes to talk to him or her about their failure rate....

It behooves both you AND your flight instructor to do it right the first time, in other words.

If someone came to me telling me that they already know everything they need to know for the commercial, and they just want me to sit in the right seat while they log that complex time, I'd suggest they go down the street.

Maybe that's what the person at Scheble's did as well....

MTV