I'm 30+ hrs into training for my PPL and been soloing for the last 10 in a C-172.

Lately when I go up I try to pick a local airport that has a decent crosswind so I can practice this. (A gusting crosswind landing is what probably scares me the most so I want to conquer this by learning it.)

I have to say that my crosswind landings are butt ugly. Even at a mere 5kts. I don't feel in tune with the wind direction. Often it seems a last second gust has me heading towards the side of the runway before I touchdown.

But most often it seems that as I try to maintain the center line with a slip, I get a bit uncoordinated and float unsuspectingly. This causes major puckering and I end up dropping the plane down hard. (Sometimes I am surprised by the strength of the landing gear.)

As a beginner I guess what I am asking here is how you guys do your landings. What are some of your cues?

If the runway is at 500 ft. altitude how do you fly the pattern? Do you do anything different with a runway listed at 5000 ft.?

Then on final with the wind blowing a bit from either side, what are you looking for and what are your procedures.

Obviously, I just need more practice.

But I was hoping some of you might be able to help speed up the learning curve with some tips.

What do you guys do?

(Also, how might a tree lined runway differ from an open one in your technique?)

Once your on short final try not thinking about the wind, just let the plane respond. Keep the crosswind correction until right before touchdown and keep the plane straight with your feet. The main thing that I used to forget during a crosswind landing is to LOOK AT THE END OF THE RUNWAY.

At least flying in a 172 you have the benefit of the trycycle gears forgiveness. The way I used to land when i was learning was to come in in a crab untill I was about to touch down and then straighten it out at the last second with the rudder. This is easily doable witht the 172 because if you still land a little sideways the gear will straighten the plane out for you. In the husky I try to hold the plane straight down the runway in a slip on final and land on one main and then bring it down to a wheel landing all the while keeping the correction it untill the plane is stopped. I also used to look at crosswinds as something to be worried about but now enjoy the challenge as another part of flying I hope to master.

JC wrote:I'm 30+ hrs into training for my PPL But I was hoping some of you might be able to help speed up the learning curve with some tips.

Whoa there Big Fella....

I'm usually one of the first guys on this site to spout off about how wise and wonderful I am, and how I don't even need an airplane to fly, but I don't think anyone here pays much attention, and it's probably a really good thing they don't. Last one who did listen to me was Hoser the Wonder Dog, and he's long gone now

But, instead of listening to us on the computer and then going out to try some of this stuff on your own, spend an afternoon reading through the literally dozens of threads on high wind and crosswind take-off and landings that you'll find, note the interesting stuff, then bring it to your flight instructor. Should make for lively discussion, then the two of you can go out and work on demonstrating some of the techniques you read about.

Gump

Hi Gump.

I tried to copy and paste a link of what it looks like when I do a search here typing in "Crosswind Landings", but it did not work. It did not give me many answers.

Try to search for it and you will see what I mean.

My intention is always to go with what my instructor thinks is right. All I'm trying to do is find out what the experienced pilots here do.

Maybe there is something that will open my eyes or help me understand it better.

Like I said, I know it will come with practice. I just like to have a bunch of tools to draw from.

One person told me to try flying a foot or two above the long runway.

Another told me to practice Dutch Rolls at a high altitude until I get better coordination between hands and feet.

I will try these and probably some other ideas I get from here or there and see what really connects with me. It probably will be some sort of combination of a few things that really help me feel it as I fly it.

GumpAir wrote:

JC wrote:I'm 30+ hrs into training for my PPL But I was hoping some of you might be able to help speed up the learning curve with some tips.

Whoa there Big Fella.

But, instead of listening to us on the computer

Now that's some good advise right there I dont care who ya R

Gump is spot on, the Internet is wonderful sometimes to wonderful.

Maybe we do need a x-wind thread? Part of the reason we're here on this site is to make flying somewhat of an academic thing and discuss it, so I say fire away. If you guys think there's no value in discussion of this topic, then skip this thread. JC's sitting at home right now, not flying. He wants to analyze!

I'm pretty green myself in the overall spectrum of experience around here, but one thing I do know that helps me is to visualize flying all the time. Of course there's no substitute for real stick time, and actual dual instruction, but like any activity I've ever done in my life -- skiing, bike riding, motocross, music performance, sex, debate, espresso making, photography, whatever -- visualization and discussion helps.

Gump's right (Gump I do listen to you ), lots has been said around here on the topic of crosswind landings, but mostly in regard to tailwheel flying and specifics like high speed differential braking or the tail-low method. I don't think though that there's been a definitive discussion of the general crosswind techniques though: The crabbing approach and the side slipping "wing low" approach.

It sounds to me like you're doing the wing-low approach -- maintaining centerline with upwind aileron, and keeping the plane directionally aligned with opposite rudder. The earlier in the approach you can stabilize these inputs the better, but sometimes you have to do some jockeying and dynamic input towards the end as your airspeed slows and the control deflections required become greater.

Are you allowing your upwind main to touch down first, and letting the reduction in airspeed drop the downwind main? If not, perhaps you are relaxing your upwind aileron in an attempt to set it down on the runway in a level bank? That can send you skittering across the runway.

I dunno. One thing I know that helps me is to just flying down a long runway a few feet off the ground at around 70-75 kts and just practice holding centerline. If it feels good and I don't want to go around, I just pull the power and let it settle. As it slows, more input is required to keep from drifting. By the time you're settled on the ground and the controls lose their effectiveness, you should end up with full aileron deflection.

I think the secret to gusting conditions is to avoid presenting too much wing that comes from making a slow, high AOA flare. I've found that keeping a few extra knots of airspeed and easing it on works better. Of course, that's in a 172. I haven't braved nearly the crosswinds in my 170 that I did in a 172 in the Reno area.

JC wrote:Hi Gump.

My intention is always to go with what my instructor thinks is right. All I'm trying to do is find out what the experienced pilots here do.

Maybe there is something that will open my eyes or help me understand it better.

Howdy JC...

Didn't mean to sound like an old grump there. Just a bit concerned about the unity of command between you and your CFI. It's easy to get all kinds of info from all kinds of sources, but at this stage of the game the ONE voice that you need to be getting all your marching orders from, as to exactly what you do in the airplane, is from your instructor. That's why I said take whatever you get from here to him/her, chew it up a bit, then go play in the airplane with their blessing and see how it works for you.

The impression I got from your original post is that consistent good landings were... Hmmm, shall I say elusive? And that's crosswind or no crosswind. Well, welcome to flying, and know that consistent is going to be your quest for a long, long time. I know it's certainly one of mine. The Cliff's Notes version of How To Land is simple. Stable approach makes for a stable flare, which makes for stable landing. Secret to stable everything is airspeed control, and learning the sight picture. The secret to airspeed is having the discipline to maintain your speed exactly where you want it. Not 1 KTS too fast or 1 KTS too slow, but exactly where YOU want it. How you do that is up to you and your CFI to figure out. Me, I flew airplanes always at or above gross weight, and the trim wheels were my best friends, and I knew exactly what power settings were needed to yield airspeed and vertical rates to get me where I wanted to be (hint, hint).

And, as your flying experience builds, hold that same discipline with headings and altitudes. Practice till it becomes reflex, good enough is not good enough, and don't be a wimp about telling the airplane what it needs to do. Doesn't mean to be ham fisted and rough, but you are in control of the machine, and you need to feel what it is doing in order to guide it. Like with horses, kids or dogs, a firm, gentle hand gets the most out of what you're working with.

Gump

zane wrote: One thing I know that helps me is to just flying down a long runway a few feet off the ground at around 70-75 kts and just practice holding centerline. If it feels good and I don't want to go around, I just pull the power and let it settle. As it slows, more input is required to keep from drifting. By the time you're settled on the ground and the controls lose their effectiveness, you should end up with full aileron deflection.

I think the secret to gusting conditions is to avoid presenting too much wing that comes from making a slow, high AOA flare. I've found that keeping a few extra knots of airspeed and easing it on works better.

That helps a lot.

I'm going to try the low flight over the runway a few times. That should help get the coordination back between my feel/hands/head. Then when I get it figured out, it should be as easy as just pulling the power when the time feels right.

I also probably let off the aileron instead of holding it there or increasing it a bit as the speed bleeds off.

Another part of my problem might be that I am focusing much too close to the plane rather than out towards the far end of the runway.

I certainly do appreciate the input from others. It sort of gives me more ways to visualize landing. Now I just need to apply it in practice until it feels right and I gain my confidense.

As Zane stated, one of the the most important aspects is to keep feeding in ailerons (turn your thumbs into the wind) until you are at full deflection and stable on the ground. Simple and easy to not get full deflection when you are on pucker factor and things are changing.

Good Crosswind technique is a lot like patting your head and rubbing your tummy at the same time. Most of us don't really get enough practice at it, and the advice to fly slowly down the centerline without touching is great. This will vastly increase your practice time from the few seconds out of each landing normal with T&G's. I would add that scouting your area for a really long runway that's not too busy might be worth it. I would recommend half flaps at first and when you feel that you are holding the centerline with the fuselage straight several times in a row then pull off 100 RPM and let the upwind wheel touch and roll along several hundred feet on one wheel before adding power and lifting off again. Try this in only about 6-8 kts of crosswind first. This practice has the added benefit that it will get you used to the idea that a go around can be made from any point in the landing and is a completely normal and useful procedure, not an emergency.

Overcontrolling or inappropriate control inputs are normal for low time guys (as well as some high timers!) and this slow flight practice will really smooth out your techinique. Start with gentle crosswinds and work up.

Good Luck!

Rocky

The flying above the runway is a good exercise, but you have to remember that once you get a stabilized correction, it isn't as simple as pulling the power and settling on, you need more deflection as your control authority decreases.

My instructor beat it into my head that flying is about compromises, and you always do things in pairs, I.E. more power/less AOA, less power/more AOA, yada yada, you get the picture.

Practice, practice, practice and have fun!!

JC, you got a lot of excellent advice here. It's pretty obvious that for the rest of your life as a pilot, crosswind landing techinque will be a work in progress. At first it feels as unnatural as a golf swing (I gotta do what with my fingers? and do I inhale during the backswing or exhale?) After a while you will be greasing 'em on. This usually happens when the pressure is highest, like the 18 knot direct crosswind landing at Oshkosh in front of 100,000 judges. Then, one day, a puffy little 5 knot zypher that can hardly even spin the windsock will have you working harder than you have in years while it eats your lunch and you "arrive" with all the grace of a first solo. Taxiing back you are convinced you must have gotten it all wrong and maybe you should start over.

Restating the cardinal rule: Make the airplane do what YOU want it to... even if it takes you years to do so. That's the fun part.

Well I disagree about having a student doing maneuvers close to the ground. Such as a few feet off the runway.

There is a whole lot of roads peaks and power lines to get proficient doing things like dutch rolls and turns around a point.

Playing these in the wind will teach not only control but will ease that pucker factor.

Also not being JC instructor does anyone know if its safe for him to be a few feet off the runway?

I know some high timers that cant tell 15ft from 2ft

Gump, was right on having JC discuss everything he reads with his instructor

JC if you get along well with your instructor talk to him about how you feel and what you want to work on.

I am a bit surprised he let you solo without adequate cross wind training.

Your question about a tree lined runway is a good one. If they are full length it may be more of a surprise on takeoff.

When your landing you get yourself stabilized and once behind the tree line you make a small correction.

However when taking off you don't know what lies up there so be on your game.

MTV WHERE ARE YOU

Hi Mr. Scout.

mr scout wrote:Also not being JC instructor does anyone know if its safe for him to be a few feet off the runway?

I know some high timers that cant tell 15ft from 2ft

Gump, was right on having JC discuss everything he reads with his instructor

JC if you get along well with your instructor talk to him about how you feel and what you want to work on.

I am a bit surprised he let you solo without adequate cross wind training.

Obviously I'm not about to try something that I don't feel comfortable about.

I'm just looking to see what may have helped others here. All if it is taken with the understanding that it really comes down to me practicing until I get the confidense and feel of it. Certainly the instructor is a part of this stuff. I have a cross country planned with him in week or so. I can bring it up then.

I am able to land the plane in crosswinds. It makes me uncomfortable but I can do it. However, being somewhat of a perfectionist, I am not satisfied with my lack of consistancy. With over a hundred thousand combined hours at this message board, I figured this would be a great place to talk about it. Just as if I had walked into a pilot shack and discussed it there.

I take it all as just friendly info.

Certainly appreciate all the ideas and tips. It has helped me get refocused on the mission next time it blows a little. I now have a whole list of things to try and think about.

mr scout wrote:Also not being JC instructor does anyone know if its safe for him to be a few feet off the runway?
...
MTV WHERE ARE YOU

Now that we have JC's impressionable ear I think we should coerce him into robbing a credit union and distributing the loot amongst all of us. Or maybe we can just talk him into snap rolling his 172 on climbout?

He seems like a reasonable, patient adult who understands the theoretical nature of hangar talk and is obviously much more capable of tolerating condescending bullshit than I am. Not being JC's instructor, I don't know if it's safe for him to even read a book or operate a porta-potty on his own, but since when did that ever keep a few airport geezers from giving tips?

I don't think Mr scout meant anything offensive or personal to JC. I also think his main point is valid. If the poor guy can't maintain a centerline on his own, is it really a good idea to go out on his own, and try and maintain a centerline while also trying to maintain altitude? After all if you can keep the airplane straight, and kiss the runway... big deal, right? If you can't keep it straight (and apparently this is the situation) an untimely touch down is a sure fire way to screw the pooch...

JC, apprehension, concern, and the fact that you are questioning are good. It's what will keep you in one piece while you are transitioning to be a better pilot. The truth of the matter is that if your instructor turned you loose before you could maintain the centerline in a x-wind it was poor trianing or detection of that deficiency on his part. Revisit this are with him, but only long enough to determine if he just didn't connect, or if he can't connect. Do not think twice about replacing him or having another instructor revisit this area.

Most of all be honest with yourself. Many flying techniques can be polished and honed on your own with suggestions and advice. This of course assumes you have the fundamentals nailed. In this case it doesn't sound like you do yet, nothing personal, none of us were born with wings.

If you are comfortable with things why not try and dissect things and perfect one area at a time. Instead of approaching with a fwd slip right to the touch down and then winging it over to a side slip at the flare, all while judging gusts, maybe try this: Try shooting down an extended final to the numbers in a crab. Accept no deviation, at the numbers go around. Do it until you can track straight to the numbers, then try an approach wing low. It will probably be harder, and certainly look goofy. but if you can maintain the track to the numbers with one wing low, transitioning that to tracking one wing low on the ground will be a smaller step. And that IS how you should be touching down in a x-wind...Learn to perfect the smaller bites and the whole enchilada becomes easier The approach is 90% of a good landing, I agree.... but the last 10 % is where most landing accidents occur... after you master landing straight, do not give up the practice... just shift you focus to tracking straight on the roll out and taxi. Ever notice how many accomplished pilots grease one, on only to wander down the strip with no rhyme or reason? ( I resemble that remark, by the way)... with enough donations to the oil companies you should be proficient enough to lift a wheel, and and track the centerline with the other, and visa versa, most proficient pilots don't realize it, but could do this fairly good at will...

In the end... burn gas...

Disclaimer..I am not an instructor, and consider myself to be a student pilot at best....take this advice for no more than you paid for it, and listen to the little voice in your head

Hey JC, my reply might suck like usual but oh well.
I gotta say i never really understood how to land in a X-wind until i was training for my tailwheel endorsement. I had 47 hours in that old 152 and after get my PPL jumped right into a Diamond and flew that in all sorts of windy conditions for about 20 hours. Then i decided i need to learn TW and got into a Citabria. Man, 13.7 hours in that little sweet heart finally taught me how to fly an airplane, esp. in X-wind conditions.

Shoot, it took a taildragger to teach me Left foot pressure and yoke down on the right side or Right foot pressure left yoke down.

I'm not sure if it is of interest to you but maybe find a Taildragger and an intructor that enjoys a good strong X-wind.

oh yea, in a strong X-wind i like to use no flaps and extra speed. This may be argued but it works well for me. peter

1SeventyZ wrote:One thing I know that helps me is to just flying down a long runway a few feet off the ground at around 70-75 kts and just practice holding centerline.

JC,

This is very good advice. Not only is this a good way to learn crosswind landings, I use this technique to teach tailwheel transition also. Use the ailerons to control your drift across the runway, maintain the centerline with the rudders, and practice, practice, practice. Keeping the airplane's nose lined up with the direction of travel makes for good x-wind landings, so use your eyeballs to keep the nose right on the centerline. In general, I don't think this is taught very well at the primary level and the RLOC accident rates bear this out. The first few hours of transition training in taildraggers is usually spent de-programming; you can't land airplanes sideways.

Me, I flew airplanes always at or above gross weight,

Oh my gosh Gump....say it ain't so!