In the Valdez video, the guys who approached the slowest and touched down at the very beginning of the landing zone seemed to be doing best. The lower we are in ground effect, the greater our airspeed can be below stall and still be slow flying or hover taxiing, if you will.

elgoatropo wrote:I advocate not messing with the flaps on rollout. Occasionally it makes sense in extreme crosswind gusts which make it difficult to keep the wheels down...

I'm not a CFI, nor am I a commercial pilot.

What I have learned from flying a number of different aircraft (from C150's to Warbirds), and from friends who've flown far more varied aircraft than I, is that you can't make definitive statements about aircraft or flying techniques. I'm not meaning any disrespect here, but there are a lot of student/new/low skill pilots that frequent this forum and I don't think its a good idea to encourage them to see things only one way, in any aspect of aircraft or flying.

One of my planes is a Mackey SQ-2, an experimental Super Cub. It's very light in the tail. It has 9' Doug Keller Double Slotted Fowler Flaps that are 62.5 degrees when fully lowered. Once the tailwheel is on, or is on its way to the ground, and the main gear is on, (so I'm no longer flying the wing) I am raising the flaps - EVERY TIME. Reason being with the tail down, and the wing at a very high angle of attack (because of the 6" extended gear, and the 35's), lowered flaps very effectively blank out much of the horizontal stabilizer/elevator's effectiveness as the aircraft comes to a stop and receiving essentially no wind from the prop.

Another is a Cessna 185. Even empty the tail has some heft to it. In addition it has extended baggage where I store the tool kit, wing covers, windshield cover, survival kit, laptop, etc. One normal person cannot lift the tail. The only time I'm likely to raise the flaps early upon landing is in a strong crosswind, otherwise it's later in the rollout - with no rush.

Bottom line is do what is right for your skill level, the particular aircraft, and the particular situation - as required.

.

Barnstormer wrote:Bottom line is do what is right for your skill level, the particular aircraft, and the particular situation - as required.

Exactly!

Tom

Max Torque wrote:

Barnstormer wrote:Bottom line is do what is right for your skill level, the particular aircraft, and the particular situation - as required.

Exactly!

Tom

One of the best posts on this thread!!

http://joshoverturf.blogspot.com/2013_0 ... chive.html

Note flap position

elgoatropo wrote:http://joshoverturf.blogspot.com/2013_09_01_archive.html

Note flap position

Also, the baggage door is open. Coincidence? Or another failed "bush pilot" technique????

A buddy has a tent camp that he runs guided fishing out of at the strip that is in the link above.. There are several wrecks up in the trees on either side of that strip and there is good reason that no one has brushed it out. I took my Avid in there a couple years ago and it was tight for that. Fish and Game balled up a cub there years ago. I can't believe that someone tried to put that 180 down in there.. I doubt Paul Claus would try that strip with a 180.

I dump the flaps the second my tail wheel hits in the Avid and then the mains plop down and its done flying. Other planes its dependent on winds and runway length etc.

It's a 180 but no matter...looks challenging.

Zzz wrote:

elgoatropo wrote:http://joshoverturf.blogspot.com/2013_09_01_archive.html

Note flap position

Also, the baggage door is open. Coincidence? Or another failed "bush pilot" technique????

No, a good rule for flap-dumpers to remember is exit through the baggage door to avoid wrinkling the undersides of your wings.

elgoatropo wrote:

Zzz wrote:

elgoatropo wrote:http://joshoverturf.blogspot.com/2013_09_01_archive.html

Note flap position

Also, the baggage door is open. Coincidence? Or another failed "bush pilot" technique????

No, a good rule for flap-dumpers to remember is exit through the baggage door to avoid wrinkling the undersides of your wings.

you just pissed cause sleds cant dump the electric flaps? There are lots of good reasons to dump flaps if you trying to come in short short.. but there are a lot of reasons you shouldn't if your not up to snuff in the cockpit too..

"you just pissed cause sleds cant dump the electric flaps? There are lots of good reasons to dump flaps if you trying to come in short short.. but there are a lot of reasons you shouldn't if your not up to snuff in the cockpit too."

Its not a bad technique if you know you have traction. In my experience, if the surface has traction, I probably could have gotten there in a car. I fly a 180 with manual flaps. Is this Lenny?

elgoatropo wrote:"you just pissed cause sleds cant dump the electric flaps? There are lots of good reasons to dump flaps if you trying to come in short short.. but there are a lot of reasons you shouldn't if your not up to snuff in the cockpit too."

Its not a bad technique if you know you have traction. In my experience, if the surface has traction, I probably could have gotten there in a car. I fly a 180 with manual flaps. Is this Lenny?

Yep.. I see now, its your short arms that keep ya from dumping the flaps and seeing over the panel LOL Talk to EZflap for help on that one. LOL

Ha! You found me out. Keep dumping those flaps. It means more 180 salvage parts for me. You should start a thread about how not to tie your plane down! Zing!

elgoatropo wrote:Ha! You found me out. Keep dumping those flaps. It means more 180 salvage parts for me. You should start a thread about how not to tie your plane down! Zing!

your a day late and a dollar short.. already got one going here. no 180 parts for you, I am buying up all the parts I can to get the beast back in the air.. http://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/s ... -180-13749 and check out the pics of the awesome work we got done by the guy in Homer on the stab and elevator....

elgoatropo wrote:

Zzz wrote:

elgoatropo wrote:http://joshoverturf.blogspot.com/2013_09_01_archive.html

Note flap position

Also, the baggage door is open. Coincidence? Or another failed "bush pilot" technique????

No, a good rule for flap-dumpers to remember is exit through the baggage door to avoid wrinkling the undersides of your wings.

For the record, my comment was tongue-in-cheek.

Zzz wrote:For the record, my comment was tongue-in-cheek.

Well played.

The can be a critical tool.

Barnstormer wrote:

elgoatropo wrote:I advocate not messing with the flaps on rollout. Occasionally it makes sense in extreme crosswind gusts which make it difficult to keep the wheels down...

I'm not a CFI, nor am I a commercial pilot.

What I have learned from flying a number of different aircraft (from C150's to Warbirds), and from friends who've flown far more varied aircraft than I, is that you can't make definitive statements about aircraft or flying techniques. I'm not meaning any disrespect here, but there are a lot of student/new/low skill pilots that frequent this forum and I don't think its a good idea to encourage them to see things only one way, in any aspect of aircraft or flying.

One of my planes is a Mackey SQ-2, an experimental Super Cub. It's very light in the tail. It has 9' Doug Keller Double Slotted Fowler Flaps that are 62.5 degrees when fully lowered. Once the tailwheel is on, or is on its way to the ground, and the main gear is on, (so I'm no longer flying the wing) I am raising the flaps - EVERY TIME. Reason being with the tail down, and the wing at a very high angle of attack (because of the 6" extended gear, and the 35's), lowered flaps very effectively blank out much of the horizontal stabilizer/elevator's effectiveness as the aircraft comes to a stop and receiving essentially no wind from the prop.

Another is a Cessna 185. Even empty the tail has some heft to it. In addition it has extended baggage where I store the tool kit, wing covers, windshield cover, survival kit, laptop, etc. One normal person cannot lift the tail. The only time I'm likely to raise the flaps early upon landing is in a strong crosswind, otherwise it's later in the rollout - with no rush.

Bottom line is do what is right for your skill level, the particular aircraft, and the particular situation - as required.

Phil, thanks for the thoughtful post. In a stock cub with big tires, would you be more likely to do it like your Mackey, or the Cessna? I see cub guys doing it both ways, and I'm curious what their reasons are. In the case of the 185, do you believe full flaps also reduces elevator effectiveness in a 3-point attitude? While taxiing my light C-180 yoke-forward with a 10 knot headwind, the tail will fly with flaps, but stops flying when flaps are retracted. I can't say for sure the elevators are more effective with flaps, since adding flaps also shifts the center of lift on the wings aft, effectively lightening the tail.

Next time I'm taxiing a 206 in similar conditions, I'll experiment with lifting the nosewheel by changing flap settings. I expect that increasing flaps will accelerate the slipstream over the elevators, giving them more downforce, since the 206 (and the 180) have less radical flaps and angle of attack than the SQ-2.

elgoatropo wrote:Phil, thanks for the thoughtful post. In a stock cub with big tires, would you be more likely to do it like your Mackey, or the Cessna?...

Thanks. That's an easy question to answer. I don't know. The SQ-2 is the only SuperCub I've flown so far.

I do need to correct my original post. The flaps are 10' long, not 9'.

Thought you might enough a photo of the flaps fully extended. Crazy huh!