elgoatropo wrote:I have a different experience with the 180 tail. Generally my trim is 3/4 towards full aft on base leg at 80 kts with a light load, closer to 1/2 back with a gross load. I usually don't mess with the trim after base leg, because I find a little back pressure on touchdown feels better.

Your mileage may vary. Ours has a leading edge cuff. I land behind the curve, with the stall warning horn going all the way down, and power on. I almost never brake except for steering.

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/me/my-p ... toid=24064

Here, I got stopped in 3-400' without brakes. Had I applied brakes, the mains would have dug in. Had I dumped flaps, the fragile tailwheel would have been overstressed, and the nose would have blocked my view of the rollout ahead. Again, every situation is different, as is every airplane. I just think the situations that call for flap dumping are pretty rare, and people need to know the downside.

I always have a hard time reconciling things when people use vague terms like 'on base leg'.... or 'in cruise flight' What does that mean? It shouldn't be vague, but one man's short final is anothers cross country...

When you say 80 kts, are you full flapped then? It's not a trick question, I'm just curious, as I tend to use flaps as trim, and don't even begin to fool with them till well below that. But that's not to suggest I have a clue what I am doing
IMHO your yard sale is going to be full of old flap tracks and skins

Also when you say the stall horn is blaring the whole way, are you saying that it is going off at 80 kts, or is that after turning final or even farther on down the line? again just curious.... most of what I fly is not equipped with a stall horn so I wouldn't know where or how it should be appropriately set, but if I flew an airplane that had the stall speed of a C180, and the stall horn started making racket at 80 kts... well you get the picture

And lastly, why don't you brake? I always thought aircraft brake linings were one of the only bargains in the aircraft parts world, I'd rather replace linings than almost anything else on the plane... There is a far better solution for tires of a backcountry type aircraft digging in than not using the brakes... it is using the appropriate tire to the mission

Take care, Rob

Rob, 80 knots on base usually means 20-30 deg of flaps. The stall horn gets going on the final once I am at landing flaps, and stabilized at somewhere around the bottom of the white arc, though not paying a whole lot of attention to the AS indicator, since I'm not making a turn.

I don't generally brake because the airplane stops itself really well with the flaps extended. It's nice to have the brakes available if things don't go according to plan, and light braking on a wheel landing along with draggy flaps and full up elevator will stop you REALLY short, which is useful if you're carrying an extra 10 kts for gusts. If my plane was heavy and aft-loaded, I wouldn't hesitate to augment the aerodynamic forces with light braking to keep it on the mains for the first half of the rollout.

Big tires are nice if you're going somewhere rough, but this plane alternates between floats and skis. Up until a few years ago, soft 8.50x6 tires were generally seen as adequate bush tires. There is no question 29" tires are better and more forgiving, and we would buy some if we weren't going on floats for hunting/fishing season.

In my humble opinion, 80 knots with half or 3/4 flaps out is just beating on the airframe with no upside. I'm sure there are certain situations where this might be justified on occasion, but as a general operating principle I'd have to say that's just hard on the airplane for no reason.

We're talking about 50+ year old flap tracks and rollers, and if I'm not mistaken replacing the flap tracks is not a light weekend project.

As our airplanes get older, we should be thinking about how we can be easier on the structure rather than harder.

If I had an airspeed indicator that registered knots, I'd change out my altimeter for one that registered in fathoms.

I can just hear my copilot now as we drop into ground effect, "By the mark: twain!"

Gump

What's an air speed indicator and stall warning horn thing y'all are talking about..? I just have a yoda and r2d2.
I usually just fly with my eyes shut and use the force. All this other stuff requires to much thinking and makes me scared.
All I know is wheel landings are better than 3 points. ALLWAYS. LOL.

Barnstormer wrote:If I had an airspeed indicator that registered knots, I'd change out my altimeter for one that registered in fathoms.

I can just hear my copilot now as we drop into ground effect, "By the mark: twain!"

Lol

EZFlap wrote:In my humble opinion, 80 knots with half or 3/4 flaps out is just beating on the airframe with no upside. I'm sure there are certain situations where this might be justified on occasion, but as a general operating principle I'd have to say that's just hard on the airplane for no reason.

We're talking about 50+ year old flap tracks and rollers, and if I'm not mistaken replacing the flap tracks is not a light weekend project.

As our airplanes get older, we should be thinking about how we can be easier on the structure rather than harder.

Sorry, got too many numbers from too many planes. I should have said 80 MPH.

Barnstormer wrote:If I had an airspeed indicator that registered knots, I'd change out my altimeter for one that registered in fathoms.

I can just hear my copilot now as we drop into ground effect, "By the mark: twain!"

Knots make you go slower. Of corse in a 180 it isn't as bad. In a cub it would be painful.
Funny, when people ask me what speeds I use, I can't tell you. I have no idea. You have to feel it. Go up, get the plane slow, do some stalls and feel it out. Then go back and do as many takeoffs you can stand.
Sometimes I'll dump the flaps on landing, most of the time not, too busy dodging stuff and getting it stopped. I will dump them or not use them on a left cross wind day. My fat leg gets stuck between them, and the stick. Makes for some very interesting landings.

Tom wrote:Knots make you go slower. Of corse in a 180 it isn't as bad. In a cub it would be painful.
Funny, when people ask me what speeds I use, I can't tell you. I have no idea.

Seems to me that many aircraft have ASIs which are at least 10% out anyway. Those iPad GPS's don't seem to work any better in some places too. In Garmin I trust (and my freshly calibrated ASI).
We did some tests the other day during formation flying. I was surprised by the results.

It's not a Jedi mind trick. If we pay attention to the sounds, feels, and outside sights of very slow flight, we can become more accurate and reliable than any mechanical or electronic device.

Patrick's potatoes work as well with a sliding scale for less excess engine thrust for climb. It's not rocket science. We just need to know if we are settling or too buoyant. Neither the ASI or GPS knows what speeds are necessary for various heights in ground effect.

contactflying wrote:It's not a Jedi mind trick. .

Funny, the other day I was in the local cell phone store talking to the salesman about smart phones, and he waved his hand in front of me and said...

"These are not the Droids you're looking for..."

Lol

My son sent me a smart phone. He finally called me on the land line a few days later and explained that I had to drag not tap the green phone to answer. Who knew? Like him, I was in intelligence at one time. For secure communications with lower units, we laid wire. If B Troop wanted to talk to C Troop, you clipped B Troop's wire to C Troop's wire.

What's a land line? Is that anything like a lubber line?

I dump flaps to keep from slinging gravel into the bottom side of the flaps (low wing). Why bang dimples into the skins when you don't have to?