The steam gauge will probably fail more often than the electronic one, so which is the real back-up.

MUCH cheaper and easier to installed an on-board backup battery inside the EFIS unit, most have an off the shelf solution.


Or if you want more redundancy, get a separate little D2 pocket panel, or if you want it in panel, get a D10.

How about this guy? It has attitude, slip/skid, airspeed, and altitude, with a built-in backup battery, and it all fits in the space of one 3" instrument. http://sandia.aero/product/sai-340-quattro/



Cary

That Scandia gizmo looks great..but costs $3600. Ouch! Requires hookup to pitot and static. But "certified" might be a game-changer -- always easier than a field approval. FA's have been problematic with the panel-mount Dynons due to the connection to the aircraft's pitot/static system.
Unfortunately, while Scandia says yes it's TSO'd and approved, it kinda sounds like they're saying you're on your own re actual installation approval.
Here's some excerpts from the Scandia webpage:
Q: Will the unit be TSO'd for all Airspeed, Altitude attitude and slip?
A: Yes it will.
Q: Will I be able to replace my vacuum system gyros?
A: Start a conversation with your shop as this is a basic question for all local FISDO to reply to. Your certified shop with have the correct path to ask the FAA.
Q: Can this unit replace my vacuum driven system in my aircraft?
A: Yes in Part 23 Aircraft please follow this link to the FAA AC 91-75:<br /><br /> <a href="http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC91-75.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC91-75.pdf</a>
Q: Will I need a STC?
A: Ask your local shop to call upon the FAA FISDO for guidance and to reference AC91-75.
Q: What is the FAA other Guidance information I can reference?
A: FAA AC 20-181<br /><br /> <a href="http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-181.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-181.pdf</a>

Cary wrote:How about this guy? It has attitude, slip/skid, airspeed, and altitude, with a built-in backup battery, and it all fits in the space of one 3" instrument. http://sandia.aero/product/sai-340-quattro/



Cary

Very cool. Anyone here flying, installing? Definitely an eye opener.

hotrod180 wrote:That Scandia gizmo looks great..but costs $3600. Ouch! Requires hookup to pitot and static. But "certified" might be a game-changer -- always easier than a field approval. FA's have been problematic with the panel-mount Dynons due to the connection to the aircraft's pitot/static system.
Unfortunately, while Scandia says yes it's TSO'd and approved, it kinda sounds like they're saying you're on your own re actual installation approval.
Here's some excerpts from the Scandia webpage:
Q: Will the unit be TSO'd for all Airspeed, Altitude attitude and slip?
A: Yes it will.
Q: Will I be able to replace my vacuum system gyros?
A: Start a conversation with your shop as this is a basic question for all local FISDO to reply to. Your certified shop with have the correct path to ask the FAA.
Q: Can this unit replace my vacuum driven system in my aircraft?
A: Yes in Part 23 Aircraft please follow this link to the FAA AC 91-75:<br /><br /> <a href="http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC91-75.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC91-75.pdf</a>
Q: Will I need a STC?
A: Ask your local shop to call upon the FAA FISDO for guidance and to reference AC91-75.
Q: What is the FAA other Guidance information I can reference?
A: FAA AC 20-181<br /><br /> <a href="http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-181.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-181.pdf</a>

FWIW, I get the impression that their website hasn't been changed since they just got the certification, other than the stamp across the picture of the instrument. I'm thinking of giving them a holler, because it looks like a great instrument to sub for a vacuum AI. Yeah, it's $3600 supposedly, but the Spruce catalog shows it at $2995. That would make it less expensive than the RC Allen digital AI + RC Allen's backup battery ($2600 + $650 =$3250), although a little more time to install, plus breaking into the pitot/static system means a new certification for the plumbing. I know it doesn't comply with the FAA's current replacement policy for electric AIs vs vacuum AIs, but perhaps a 337/field approval might work.

Cary

Unfortunately they chose to cram all that airspeed / altitude stuff into it, which not only increases the price but complicates things due to the pitot/static connection requirement. I wonder why they did that? If they had made it just a simple electronic attitude indicator, it would be a no-sweat installation. Trying to compete with Dynon's everything-in-one unstruements I guess.

hotrod180 wrote:Unfortunately they chose to cram all that airspeed / altitude stuff into it, which not only increases the price but complicates things due to the pitot/static connection requirement. I wonder why they did that? If they had made it just a simple electronic attitude indicator, it would be a no-sweat installation. Trying to compete with Dynon's everything-in-one unstruements I guess.

I like simple autonomous instrumentation for my personal use (VFR). Easier to maintain and generally is less money.

hotrod180 wrote:Unfortunately they chose to cram all that airspeed / altitude stuff into it, which not only increases the price but complicates things due to the pitot/static connection requirement. I wonder why they did that? If they had made it just a simple electronic attitude indicator, it would be a no-sweat installation. Trying to compete with Dynon's everything-in-one unstruements I guess.

Possibly so you could put one instrument on the right side of the panel and have duel IFR pilot seats. I normally fly right seat, but all my flight instruments are on the left. It's really hard to fly IFR from the right seat, and even VFR I get very little airspeed information on final. My (third) turn coordinator is going tits-up, and since it sits dead center in the panel I'm going to replace it with the Scandia. That should make flying IFR from the right seat much more reasonable, and I'm looking forward to actually seeing my airspeed for a change.

hotrod180 wrote:Unfortunately they chose to cram all that airspeed / altitude stuff into it, which not only increases the price but complicates things due to the pitot/static connection requirement. I wonder why they did that? If they had made it just a simple electronic attitude indicator, it would be a no-sweat installation. Trying to compete with Dynon's everything-in-one unstruements I guess.

They are hardly trying to compete with Dynon, which has made no effort to certificate anything.

They included the A/S and altimeter in this unit so that you can use it as a stand alone backup for an IFR EFIS. In effect, this is a mini-EFIS. All EFIS must have backup A/S and Alt for backup.

And the company is Sandia, not Scandia.

MTV

Hammer wrote:.... I normally fly right seat, but all my flight instruments are on the left....

I'm curious why you fly from the right seat. The people I know that do so 1) are helo pilots, 2) are a CFI, or 3) really like the left hand throttle /right hand stick thing.

I enjoy flying at night and I have plans to get my instrument rating and I don't want to completely rework my panel for IMC. Even if I don't get my rating soon I'll want some redundancy for night flying.

I'm not real keen on the internal backup batteries. I want a backup if the EFIS fails completely. The Sandia looks good but since I'm leaning toward GRT I'd just use one of their Minis ($1300) for a backup. Still, I'm not sure about he backup system being electric. Doesn't seem robust enough.

hotrod180 wrote:

Hammer wrote:.... I normally fly right seat, but all my flight instruments are on the left....

I'm curious why you fly from the right seat. The people I know that do so 1) are helo pilots, 2) are a CFI, or 3) really like the left hand throttle /right hand stick thing.

I learned to fly right seat when my wife was getting her license (damn near like learning to fly all over again). Since she only flys left seat I just keep flying right seat. It's more comfortable for me than the left seat at this point.

Hammer wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:

Hammer wrote:.... I normally fly right seat, but all my flight instruments are on the left....

I'm curious why you fly from the right seat. The people I know that do so 1) are helo pilots, 2) are a CFI, or 3) really like the left hand throttle /right hand stick thing.

I learned to fly right seat when my wife was getting her license (damn near like learning to fly all over again). Since she only flys left seat I just keep flying right seat. It's more comfortable for me than the left seat at this point.

Boy I know what you meen, I have been in the left seat for the last 4-5000 hrs, had Cory in the left seat of the Broussard, was going to show him how to land it About touch down he said a little left rudder, then with more authority, finally after I touched down I said you got it, as Shit I did not even think about not havin any brakes on the right side either!! Sure glad he can recover real well! got us back on the runway and everything!!

hotrod180 wrote:Unfortunately they chose to cram all that airspeed / altitude stuff into it, which not only increases the price but complicates things due to the pitot/static connection requirement. I wonder why they did that? If they had made it just a simple electronic attitude indicator, it would be a no-sweat installation. Trying to compete with Dynon's everything-in-one unstruements I guess.

With respect, much is being made of that pitot / static plug in requirement.

It took me literally 5 minutes to install those connections. They literally could not be any simpler.

For instance, electrical wiring is a much bigger job. Save the paperwork of course, of which there is none if you're experimental.

I appreciate that from a TSO perspective, breaking into those systems is a biggy. Just saying - the mechanics of it are one of the simplest things on a light single VFR aircraft.

whee wrote:I'm not sure about he backup system being electric. Doesn't seem robust enough.

From an engineering point of view, it's got to be more roust based on the statistics? - provided they are completely separate systems.

The chances of a complete failure occurring, in both (dual) independent systems, during flight, while physically in IMC, would have to be less than the chances of winning the lottery?

Battson wrote:

hotrod180 wrote:.... not only increases the price but complicates things due to the pitot/static connection requirement. .....

With respect, much is being made of that pitot / static plug in requirement.
It took me literally 5 minutes to install those connections. They literally could not be any simpler......

You're right-- cut a line, put in a tee, hook-em back up, no big deal. I was talking about the paperwork aspect. The feds have a real bug up their ass about tapping into the pitot/static system which drives the airspeed & altimeter. They are advocating AOA instruments now, but some of those tap into the pitot/static system also- I wonder how well they will handle that aspect of it?

For the serious DYIer, here's something I've been building.

https://github.com/Bagarre/Pi2D2

FWIW, the December 2015 issue of Aviation Consumer has an article on Electronic Attitude Gyros.

Battson wrote:

whee wrote:I'm not sure about he backup system being electric. Doesn't seem robust enough.

From an engineering point of view, it's got to be more roust based on the statistics? - provided they are completely separate systems.

The chances of a complete failure occurring, in both (dual) independent systems, during flight, while physically in IMC, would have to be less than the chances of winning the lottery?

Agreed. However, with a single alternator the batteries can not be completely separate and that is my hesitation. My dad and I put over 500hrs on the T&B in the Luscombe with zero problems and it had an unknown amount of time on it when we put it back in the panel. I've been under the impression that the vacuum pump is the least reliable part in a vacuum system; I'd be using a venturi. But a GRT Mini-X with a small battery under the pilot seat could be a nice way to go. With simple circuitry I could protect the backup system from an alternator failure (voltage spike) and isolate it so it doesn't feed power back into the primary system.

Once again my dreams of having steam gauges in the plane are ruined

whee wrote:

Battson wrote:

whee wrote:I'm not sure about he backup system being electric. Doesn't seem robust enough.

From an engineering point of view, it's got to be more roust based on the statistics? - provided they are completely separate systems.

The chances of a complete failure occurring, in both (dual) independent systems, during flight, while physically in IMC, would have to be less than the chances of winning the lottery?

Agreed. However, with a single alternator the batteries can not be completely separate and that is my hesitation. My dad and I put over 500hrs on the T&B in the Luscombe with zero problems and it had an unknown amount of time on it when we put it back in the panel. I've been under the impression that the vacuum pump is the least reliable part in a vacuum system; I'd be using a venturi. But a GRT Mini-X with a small battery under the pilot seat could be a nice way to go. With simple circuitry I could protect the backup system from an alternator failure (voltage spike) and isolate it so it doesn't feed power back into the primary system.

Once again my dreams of having steam gauges in the plane are ruined

Whee,

If it's any consolation, I went from a lot of flight hours behind nothing but steam gauges to total glass cockpits, and it was really an easy transition. I'm once again flying a steam gauge airplane, but if I were to build one, it'd have glass cockpit.....no hesitation at all. The stuff is magic, particularly if you're ever going to do IFR.

MTV