flyer wrote:It sounds like a good idea to me. Let us turn all of our food crops into fuel. Fuel that we cannot use in our planes. I am sure that it will really lower the price of car gas. It is okay if the food prices go up also.

Let me see. Marty raises corn and is part owner of an ethanol plant. Maybe there is a good reason for him to be pro-ethanol.

I did not think I would see Idaho being taken over by the Dark Side.

flyer

I think Marty is smart for making money off the system put in place by the government.

I think ethanol is the wrong way to go though.

Now is the time to call your senators and representative.

This is what I have been asking for. 5-10 year moratorium on any law suites relating to oil or gas drilling and building refineries and nuclear power plants.

Rob

Not sure where to start with AntiCub.

Things have changed in the petrolium business since high school. Ya think.

The tanks are vented but they are pressure vents cus all gas station now have a balanced system. In other words vapors no longe escape like before.

The eth is added at the rack cus it cannot be shipped in the pipeline, has to be shipped by truck.

I have built a few gas stations from the ground up and the fill sumps have sensors in them and if water comes in or fuel leaks into them the alarm goes off and basically you cannot pump gas tell things are back to normal.

Everything is double containment. You act like the gas stations are serving their product from an open bucket.

Also even in an open vented 182, you will not get a measurable amount of water vapor absorption, not even in Seattle.

Not defending forced Eth but you are not getting water in your car gas.

Tim

qmdv

Are you saying that water should not be a problem in the use of ethanol E-10? That is supposedly one of the main concerns about using it in aircraft.

flyer

qmdv wrote:Not sure where to start with AntiCub.

Things have changed in the petrolium business since high school. Ya think.

It was collage, and from the rest of your text, not that much really.

The tanks are vented but they are pressure vents cus all gas station now have a balanced system. In other words vapors no longe escape like before.

Didn't know this. That's one nice improvement. So what fills the void at the top of the tank as the level goes down? Since I haven't seen nitrogen bottles around gas stations, I'm guessing it's atmospheric air, with any moisture it contains.

The eth is added at the rack cus it cannot be shipped in the pipeline.

I'm curious, why not? Seems it would much simpler to blend the fuel in bulk before piping to an area it's mandated in.

I have built a few gas stations from the ground up and the fill sumps have sensors in them and if water comes in or fuel leaks into them the alarm goes off and basically you cannot pump gas tell things are back to normal.

That's a little different. The station I worked at only had them in the dispensing pumps. They shut the pumps down if it started sucking water out of the storage tank. The filling wells used to fill with water frequently in the spring.

Everything is double containment. You act like the gas stations are serving their product from an open bucket.

The double containment is to keep the fuel out of the ground, not to keep air out. (I've designed a few underground tank installations myself). Also, I know my airport has all it's fuel tanks above ground, where they're much more likely to get condensation in the tanks.

Also even in an open vented 182, you will not get a measurable amount of water vapor absorption, not even in Seattle.

So where does the water we get out of our sumps come from? Especially when the plane's been hangared so there's no chance for rain water incursion.

Not defending forced Eth but you are not getting water in your car gas.

Tim

Actually, that was part of my point too. The way fuel is used by cars is very different than for our aircraft. There's not much chance for auto fuel to get water contaminated becuase it's typically burned before it has the chance. Aircraft fuels generally spend a lot more time in storage, both before and after they're in our planes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can never use ethanol in our aircraft. There are enough examples now that prove otherwise. Heck, the Japanese used it in their planes in WWII. But to think you can just treat it the same as regular old gasoline will bite you eventually.

Phil

I have lost interest in this thread. The responses are too long. Short attention span here. Not anybody elses fault.

Tim

Well, ethanol has finally hit home! The station near the airport where I've been gassing up put ethanol stickers on the pumps a week or so ago. I started testing then, the second batch I bought there ( this week) tested out at about 6%. There's a couple other local stations which apparently are still ethanol free.
A week or two ago I emailed all three of my state legislators, my 3 federal legislators, & the governor protesting the mandatory ethanol-dillution of gas. I stated the BS aspect of ot first, then as a closer stated my oppostion to it from a safety standpoint as a pilot necesarily using car gas since modern avgas is not suitable for my vintage airplane.
I got email responses from a couple of them. US Senator Patty Murray just gave me some double talk- didn't say if she was for, against, or indifferent. (typical politician). State Rep Lynn Kessler said that the ethanol was pushed by the feds, not the state of Washington. But she's full of shit- the state mandated it's use here, not the feds. Again, typical politician.

Eric

Eric

All stations in Washington and Idaho will have Ethanol E-10. They will all have gone over to the dark side soon.

It is about money and profits. Our money and their profits.

Flyer

hotrod150 wrote:since modern avgas is not suitable for my vintage airplane

You actually expect anyone but weird old pilot geezers to care about our vintage of airplane?

I think Henry Ford had the right idea. He designed the Model T(vintage car) to run on ethanol until John D. Rockefeller put the kabosh on that. He also used soybeans to make some parts for his cars. He said something to this effect---if I use the farmers products to make cars, then the farmer will make some money to buy a new car from me. I guess back then there were more farmers----today I think we're less than 2% of the population. Who needs us worthless farmers anyway?

A little off topic, but I think we all understand that ethanol is not the perfect solution, but it is a start. It seems like if everybody that spent all their time and energy complaining about ethanol would put their efforts towards a different solution, instead of bashing, we could be on the verge of the next solution.

Just my .02

I gotta get to work, time to spray my corn

I agree with marty, I think most all planes would do just fine on 10%. This isn't the 70's anymore.

Flame away!!!!

1SeventyZ wrote:

hotrod150 wrote:since modern avgas is not suitable for my vintage airplane

You actually expect anyone but weird old pilot geezers to care about our vintage of airplane?

The point was supposed to be that ethanol-dilluted gas creates a safety-of-flight issue. Since the majority of airplanes operating out there are old, and getting older, that will hopefully be something that our legislators care about.
I think the whole ethanol-in-gas thing is supposed to make everyone think that by god! something is being done about these oil prices! But it's not doing shit - unless you're on the receiving end of the subsidies. How much petroleum is used to produce a gallon of ethanol?

Eric

lancef53 wrote:A little off topic, but I think we all understand that ethanol is not the perfect solution, but it is a start. It seems like if everybody that spent all their time and energy complaining about ethanol would put their efforts towards a different solution, instead of bashing, we could be on the verge of the next solution..........

OK, what different solution? Lay it on me. I can live with the ethanol in my car gas, but I can't live with the ethanol in my airplane gas (pun intended). At least according to EAA,Petersen, and Cessna who all prohobit alcohol in the STC/TC's. If someone (EAA,Petersen.FAA) comes up with something that sez ethanol use is safe & OK, then I'll stop bitching. And please don't tell me to use avgas, I've had enough lead fouling of plugs at inopportune/critical moments thank you very much.
What happened to that 82UL avgas that was gonna be the big thing?

Eric

I love how we have like 3 or 4 ethanol threads.

The things that piss me off the most are:

1. Government subsidizes the production of ethanol.
2. Ethanol costs less than refined gasoline, so oil-company owned refineries cut their product with it, thereby increasing their saleable volume.
3. Ethanol diluted fuel not legal for airplanes.
4. Ethanol diluted fuel has less energy per unit volume, so I pay more and get worse mileage.
5. Oil companies bottom lines get bigger.
6. Road rage

I am thinking of putting solar panels on my wings and maybe getting a very long extension cord. Whaddayathink?

flyer

The subsidies don't bother me that much. Farmers have been getting subsidized to grow or not grown certain crops for years. Lots of other industries are subsidized also. That seems to be how things work. I just don't like some bullshit program like this ethanol deal being forced on it. Actually, I wouldn't be a fan but probably wouldn't hardly care except for the fact that I use car gas in my airplane. For those uses which ethanol is not appropriate for, I think the whole gasohol program ought to include mandatory availability of some grade (91's OK) of "pure" car gas. # 3 in Zaane's post.
Item #6 I don't get?
Item #5: oil company bottom lines.. businesses are entitled to make a reasonable prifit. The headlines scream "record profits for oil companies".. what are those profits? As prices of both raw material & the products go up, profit will also go up in dollar value even if the percent of profit stays the same. Having once been in business for myself, I don't begrudge someone a fair profit-- just no gouging.

Eric

My items were meant to be sequential steps to enlightenment, road rage over gas prices being the ultimate outcome.

I agree, subsides are sometimes necessary, but this one seems to simply be only helping farmers and oil companies. The end users of the product are not benefiting.

You're right, every business is entitled to turn a profit, even a profit that matches inflation. In the case of gasoline and diesel though, they are the lifeblood of the nation. Economies are hinged on the price of this resource, and when the price of it increases nearly 700% in 6.5 years, bad things happen. Airlines collapse, smaller businesses fail, families and individuals are pinched, prices on all freighted products increase across the board. For that reason, I think it's an industry that has a responsibility to remain more stable, which is impossible at the moment since so many investors are making a killing on oil speculation in the futures market.

Zane, maybe item # 5.5 in your list could be:

Theft

There have been more & more reports of gasoline theft
recently (some stealing several hundred+ gallons).

Drill all over Alaska. Drill off the coast. Drill in the Rose Garden if necessary. How come China does not need permision to drill off of Florida but Exon does?

More nucs, more wind power and for gosh sakes do not tear down any dams. For that matter we ought to dam up Niagra Falls. That would make a lot of electricity.

If OPEC and the speculators saw that we were serious about this crap they would just shit a brick and down the prices would come.

Tim

PS. I cancelled my membership in the Sierra club and no more donations to the Nature Cancervancy

Tim

qmdv wrote: ...........
More nucs, more wind power and for gosh sakes do not tear down any dams. ...................................Tim

Damn right!