Pierre_R wrote:If you ask me if you have time to depart, I won't (and shouldnt) answer. Re-read the AIM, and follow AIM guidelines for reporting on CTAF (who you are, where you are, intentions). If everyone does that, then the PIC, and only the PIC, decides if he/she has time to depart, based on your knowledge and judgment of the inbound plane's position and speed, and how long it takes you to get going.

Please don't ask others to make PIC decisions for you. If I answer, "yeah, sure, you have time to leave", then you turn out to be one of the aforementioned guys who picks his nose and messes with stuff after taking the runway, then whose fault is it that I have to do a side step go around and potentially create a riskier situation?

Pierre

Sorry I should have worded that better. My point was, if you don't know where they are, ask.

I generally fly a pretty tight pattern, and when someone is holding short or even anywhere near the departure end of the runway I usually make calls like "downwind abeam, close-in pattern" "turning close-in base", or "close-in base to final" so they know I'm NOT setting up for a 2 mile final like all too many people seem to do these days. I avoid the phrase "short final" as it is over-used these days-- IMHO two miles out is NOT "short final" unless you're in a turboprop or jet.

A little story:

One time I was flying my family up to Washington and needed to make a fuel stop at a small, municipal airport in north central Oregon. I made all the announcements, made a mid-field entry to downwind after checking the sock (the wind clearly favoring one direction), announced base and final.

When about ready to round out — almost to the threshold, I see a turbine crop-duster pull out from behind some hangars on the opposite end of the runway, and immediately start his takeoff roll right towards me.

After a split second of disbelief, I start pushing the throttle in for a go-around and slide over to the right. Remember, I’m at max 10 feet at this point. Full flaps and my whole family onboard, and this guy's heading straight at me.

The guy apparently sees me now, and lets off a “puff” of whatever he’s carrying, to warn me that he’s not aborting (he tells me later.)

I do my go around, say a few well chosen words and make an uneventful, albeit shaky landing.

Later while I’m getting fuel he comes up to me and apologizes. He says that even though they’re flying state-of-the-art modern turbine aircraft, they don’t have radios “because of the chemicals.” He also says that he didn’t look for traffic at all before heading out on the runway because he was in a hurry, took off downwind to save time, and couldn’t abort his takeoff once he saw me because he was too heavy.

I understand the time pressures these guys are under, but there’s no excuse for not at least visually scanning the pattern before taking off. Hoping to make some kind of positive impact on his future flying, I got him to agree that there was nothing I could have done on my end to avoid the situation, since he took literally no steps to check the pattern before taking off.

Oregon180 wrote:Later while I’m getting fuel he comes up to me and apologizes.

As well he should! What a messed up situation!

Oregon 180,

If you operated in that area you would do well to talk to his boss. If he's in that much hurry he is going to bust a very expensive machine even if he doesn't hurt people. John Wooden's advise was to, "be quick, but don't hurry."

Crop dusters regularly land to the loader and takeoff away from the loader, regardless of wind direction. That is why it is so important that they look carefully for anyone in the area, especially on final into the wind. The ground crews are like race car pit crews, but the pilot is still responsible for everything he does or doesn't do. Most operators choose to operate out of spray strips rather than regular airports.

His rules are in Part 137, which is not usually published with the big FAR/AIM book. You young guys use computer now anyway and can find it on the FAA.gov site. He is allowed to operate differently than regular traffic, but is to Give Way to all other traffic.

Like others have said, expect the unexpected.

Contact

I agree about expecting the unexpected. In this case though, there was really nothing I could have done differently that would have told me that he was going to pull out and take off toward me before he did.

By operating the way he was at a public airport, a conflict like this was bound to eventually happen. He probably got away with it for a long time, and the timing of my arrival was just "right."

Oregon180 wrote:A little story:

One time I was flying my family up to Washington and needed to make a fuel stop at a small, municipal airport in north central Oregon. I made all the announcements, made a mid-field entry to downwind after checking the sock (the wind clearly favoring one direction), announced base and final.

When about ready to round out — almost to the threshold, I see a turbine crop-duster pull out from behind some hangars on the opposite end of the runway, and immediately start his takeoff roll right towards me.

After a split second of disbelief, I start pushing the throttle in for a go-around and slide over to the right. Remember, I’m at max 10 feet at this point. Full flaps and my whole family onboard, and this guy's heading straight at me.

The guy apparently sees me now, and lets off a “puff” of whatever he’s carrying, to warn me that he’s not aborting (he tells me later.)

I do my go around, say a few well chosen words and make an uneventful, albeit shaky landing.

Later while I’m getting fuel he comes up to me and apologizes. He says that even though they’re flying state-of-the-art modern turbine aircraft, they don’t have radios “because of the chemicals.” He also says that he didn’t look for traffic at all before heading out on the runway because he was in a hurry, took off downwind to save time, and couldn’t abort his takeoff once he saw me because he was too heavy.

I understand the time pressures these guys are under, but there’s no excuse for not at least visually scanning the pattern before taking off. Hoping to make some kind of positive impact on his future flying, I got him to agree that there was nothing I could have done on my end to avoid the situation, since he took literally no steps to check the pattern before taking off.

I would have said an apology was too little in that situation. That's blatant disregard for the rules and procedures, and created a real risk of causing serious harm, or death, and in my opinion if that's not a reportable near-miss incident then nothing is.

Oregon180 wrote:A little story:

One time I was flying my family up to Washington and needed to make a fuel stop at a small, municipal airport in north central Oregon. I made all the announcements, made a mid-field entry to downwind after checking the sock (the wind clearly favoring one direction), announced base and final.

When about ready to round out — almost to the threshold, I see a turbine crop-duster pull out from behind some hangars on the opposite end of the runway, and immediately start his takeoff roll right towards me.

After a split second of disbelief, I start pushing the throttle in for a go-around and slide over to the right. Remember, I’m at max 10 feet at this point. Full flaps and my whole family onboard, and this guy's heading straight at me.

The guy apparently sees me now, and lets off a “puff” of whatever he’s carrying, to warn me that he’s not aborting (he tells me later.)

I do my go around, say a few well chosen words and make an uneventful, albeit shaky landing.

Later while I’m getting fuel he comes up to me and apologizes. He says that even though they’re flying state-of-the-art modern turbine aircraft, they don’t have radios “because of the chemicals.” He also says that he didn’t look for traffic at all before heading out on the runway because he was in a hurry, took off downwind to save time, and couldn’t abort his takeoff once he saw me because he was too heavy.

I understand the time pressures these guys are under, but there’s no excuse for not at least visually scanning the pattern before taking off. Hoping to make some kind of positive impact on his future flying, I got him to agree that there was nothing I could have done on my end to avoid the situation, since he took literally no steps to check the pattern before taking off.

Welcome to my World. That's happened so many times to me, I've lost count. They're talking, but only to each other on the company radio, not to other traffic. The smoke pot puff is a little comical. It's usually less noticeable than the 60 foot yellow wing span doing a wing over to avoid a wreck. You can't even bitch them out because they're not listening.

It has cured me of full flap approaches, and I can land in the parking lot where it's safer some days.

Sounds like you guys have some bad operators up there. When two airplanes get together nobody wins. However, as they are designed to crash, they will have less injury and fatalities.

I have worked out of Fabens, Texas where the airport was built by farmers for spraying and not by the town. All of us crop dusters were thrown off Springfield, Missouri Downtown when they put new black pavement on the ramp and we all leaked a bit making white spots. I have sprayed out of Springfield Municipal, Class D at the time, in a Stearman without a radio. I expect there are various situations and agreements around the country even today.

Regardless of the situation, seeing and avoiding is far better than mid airs or legal battles with lawyers involved. There was a very common saying on the Navajo Reservation that I thought was not very progressive when I was younger. I am not so sure now. It was, "give it some time." They thought we Bellegaunas were a bit too much in a hurry.

Oregon180 wrote:....Later while I’m getting fuel he comes up to me and apologizes. He says that even though they’re flying state-of-the-art modern turbine aircraft, they don’t have radios “because of the chemicals.” He also says that he didn’t look for traffic at all before heading out on the runway because he was in a hurry, took off downwind to save time, and couldn’t abort his takeoff once he saw me because he was too heavy....

He fucked up, plain & simple. Hopefully that was a wake-up call for him, and he won't end up killing someone someday operating like that on a public airport. But I get the impression that probably wasn't the case.

One of the local small (uncontrolled) airports I drop into fairly often, because I have a friend who lives in a hangar there, has a busy crop duster service there. For decades it was pretty well understood by us locals, they didn't have radios, or if they did they sure as hell didn't use them. But in the last couple years I caught myself a few times, before I got fully up to speed that they did indeed NOW have, and were using, radios, after hearing a position report and simultaneously spotting a spray plane, not realizing they were one and the same and not in potential conflict! When I pointed this out to one of the spray pilots he laughed, I feel it's pretty damned considerate of them as busy as they are to use them, even though at a small uncontrolled airport where they don't, and never did, use them. I'm there pretty much just screwing around, and they're trying to make a living, point being.

courierguy wrote:One of the local small (uncontrolled) airports I drop into fairly often, because I have a friend who lives in a hangar there, has a busy crop duster service there. For decades it was pretty well understood by us locals, they didn't have radios, or if they did they sure as hell didn't use them. But in the last couple years I caught myself a few times, before I got fully up to speed that they did indeed NOW have, and were using, radios, after hearing a position report and simultaneously spotting a spray plane, not realizing they were one and the same and not in potential conflict! When I pointed this out to one of the spray pilots he laughed, I feel it's pretty damned considerate of them as busy as they are to use them, even though at a small uncontrolled airport where they don't, and never did, use them. I'm there pretty much just screwing around, and they're trying to make a living, point being.

Similar story here. Aircraft in distress is the only excuse to get in the way of the guys earning a living in 90 days. However.......All our problems with near misses are caused by one ag pilot with a broken radio in an 802. An empty 1400 horse turbine is a fast mover too-200mph. It's hard to believe a guy with an airplane worth over a mil can't get his radio fixed. Since it's been that way for two years, there's been a change in etiquette around the airport. The ag guys with radios get respect and we all yield to their livelihood. it's easy to do when they're making calls 5 miles out, or we see them taxiing and we can communicate "go ahead, I'll be right behind you.". Also near misses are just formation ish when both pilots are communicating, and everyone bonds a little over the radio from daily conversations. The attitude toward Mr. Mute in the 802 is different. He has become a stench in everyone's nostrils over the close encounters. He get's ignored while someone is doing a runup at the hold short line, or they'll purposely slow taxi in front of him to the other end just to make a point. The respect thing cuts both ways and when there's 20 burger chasers to every crop duster, it's really in the ag operators' best interest to play nice.

The airport in question I mentioned is Blackfoot, whoever is working the spray operation there nowadays is pretty on top of his radio work, which is what took me by surprise. I always make sure to stay the hell out of their way for sure. Like I tell my dog when we drive by the working sheep dogs when the flocks (herds??) are right down the road from my place and he unloads on them, "cut them some slack, they're just trying to make a living."

There may be some confusion about see and avoid. An energy management turn to maximize efficiency and safety in limiting turn radius is not being a jerk. It is missing, once committed, by the greatest margin possible. I agree that becoming committed after seeing the conflict is dangerous. I disagree that turning efficiently to miss is problematic. There are different levels of understanding and comfort with maximum efficiency turning. That is fine, but don't blame the guy who can turn shorter for turning shorter.

802s are nearer two million now. I can't believe a guy working for the man who owes the bank for that thing is allowed to cause that airplane to near miss on a regular basis. He is probably an old fart, like me, who owns the plane and doesn't use the radio because it confuses normal traffic. I never had a radio in a Pawnee, Callair, or Stearman.

An 802 or Cessna on a pipeline is a different matter. However, I found that using the radio in the Cessna on pipelines just confused normal traffic at uncontrolled airports. I was busy patrolling and keeping track of spot reports as well as visually checking if anyone was around to avoid. No problem if I kept trucking. From 100' I could see all other aircraft in the area up high. If I was going to land, I gave way. Explaining all this to an airplane that didn't see me wasn't helpful. Because of ground clutter, he still didn't see me. Now I have disrupted his normal operation and delayed him. This delays me and others who are going to follow him and things can get balled up. I have worked pipelines within one quarter mile of uncontrolled airports, waited for others to land, and landed behind them thousands of times without ever being seen. Experience proved stealth to be the safer method. And yes, it is legal.

The tactical situation is always fluid. Spray operations are not normal. Besides see and avoid the safest rule for sprayers is to give way to normal traffic. How much way is given will always be in dispute. That is why sprayers avoid normal public use airports as much as possible.

I don't know his details other than to watch him, but the spray operator who works out of GXY (Greeley) surprises some with his very low patterns (look to be about 300' AGL) and opposite-direction landings and take-offs, but I've never seen him muck up other traffic. For instance, the "official" calm wind runway is 35, but most of us use 10 instead, and the few jets which come in typically use 35 or 17 depending on wind. He usually lands and takes off on 28, no matter what direction the wind is blowing. But he stays out of the way of other traffic, even on the busiest Saturday mornings, when all the $100 hamburger folks come in.

So what I'm saying is, there's no excuse for anyone, ag pilots or otherwise, to conflict with other traffic. Yeah, there are rules to follow, but the best rule is the Golden Rule.

On the original post, I used to spin the airplane around 360 degrees as a matter of following what I'd been taught, but at some point I realized that I was doing it pro forma, and actually looking more to make sure I didn't run off of the taxiway than looking in the pattern. So for the last many years, I make sure I turn the airplane so that I can see at least base and final. If I see someone on base or hear them announce that they're on base, they have to be pretty far out on a B-52 size pattern for me to pull out for take off.

I don't have any issue with coordinating landings or take-offs by radio with another pilot. I think safety is enhanced that way--which is not the same thing as giving up my PIC status. For example, last week my regular instructor and I flew out to Sterling for lunch (in a dozen years, it was the first time he rode in my airplane as a passenger instead of as my instructor). As we approached Sterling from the west and announced 10 west, another of the lunch bunch flying a Mooney Ovation announced he was 15 south on a straight in for 33.

Although a Mooney cruises a bunch faster than my hot rod 172, I guessed that if I kept up my speed as I entered downwind for 33 and then made a tight pattern and short approach, I'd be in and clear of the runway before he got there, and I said so to my passenger/instructor. He has a hard time not instructing, so he was doing our position calls. So just before I was going to turn base, he called the Mooney and asked his position--now 5 out. That gave us plenty of time, so when I turned base, I announced turning base and added, "we'll be down and clear before the Mooney gets here." He replied, "No problem, I've got you in sight." And we were easily down and clear on the first taxiway about 900' from the approach end, well before the Mooney arrived. He landed and fast-taxied past us on the runway. So by communicating, we both got in pretty quickly, but more importantly, very safely.

Cary

For the new pilots reading this post it is going to be confusing on what is the proper way to do things. Like everything in life there are some basic rules and you should have been taught them to get your PPL. Right or wrong from that point on things will change and you have to grow and try to understand why pilots do what they do. When I fly into areas where I do not know the other pilots I am very careful about watching them and making my intentions clear. If you have a friend that wants to do 4 mile finals every time than adjust for that. If you have guys that can stack 4 planes on a 1500 ft strip before you all turn to back taxi, life is good. New pilots/some old ones are not always comfortable about sharing runways with departing /arriving aircraft. The first time I was shown how to fly a 200ft pattern I sure I was going to die. The bottom line is trust no one! If in doubt, hold or go around, and Communicate.
DENNHY

I'll have to admit I have never done a 360 turn after run up, was never taught that and have never seen anyone do that. Doesn't make much sense to me and seems to invite more problems than it solves. I line up so as not to allow prop wash on any other aircraft during run up and then face the runway at an angle to see incoming aircraft on final.

Once the tail wheel has gone into caster mode, it is easier to go all the way around rather than a 180 one way and then a 180 the other way. Also with slower aircraft including helicopter, it is comforting to see all the way around. A King Air on downwind could make a fairly short base and decide you weren't far enough along and go around close to you just coming off. Not a problem, just a little scarier than doing the full 360. We old, slow guys are touchy about exposing our tail very long to the unknown. A little more situational awareness, not worth the strain on faster nose wheel airplanes and meybe even your 180, is worth it to some of us.

contactflying wrote:Once the tail wheel has gone into caster mode, it is easier to go all the way around rather than a 180 one way and then a 180 the other way. Also with slower aircraft including helicopter, it is comforting to see all the way around. A King Air on downwind could make a fairly short base and decide you weren't far enough along and go around close to you just coming off. Not a problem, just a little scarier than doing the full 360. We old, slow guys are touchy about exposing our tail very long to the unknown. A little more situational awareness, not worth the strain on faster nose wheel airplanes and meybe even your 180, is worth it to some of us.

Well it is definitely food for thought and I take the advice I read here pretty seriously so I do thank you and others for sharing. I only have a 170, which is new to me, so I will have to peddle pretty fast to get out of the way of any King Airs or most other traffic in general.

I was taught to turn into the direction of final at about a 45 degree angle so you could see approaching aircraft. Since the other pilot was on down wind, I would have announced my intentions, asked if they had a problem with it, and waited for a response before pulling on the runway. I have seen all kinds of dumb a** things done, things a lot worse than this, and have had even worse things done by controllers. Just keep your head on a swivel, keep talking on the radio, watch for those that have their heads where the sun doesn't shine, and keep learning.