It helps to look at the psychology of uncontrolled, now popularly called pilot controlled, traffic. We are all doing what we consider the right thing. This is normal human behavior. Where there is a mutually acceptable referee, or professional controller, things generally work smoothly. Where we operate cooperatively, without professional control, we generally get along pretty well with generally acceptable standards with some exceptions. It gets a little fuzzier.

What I'm trying to say is that without hiring the referee, and given human nature, it is safer to give way assuming the other guy thinks he is right. And for goodness sakes, when he comes over to discuss it on the ground, say, "you're probably right."

Ya got to have your head on a swivle for sure, Some folks have no radio and the right to land also!!
It has worked for years, just keep your eyes open and be curtious!

M6RV6 wrote:Ya got to have your head on a swivle for sure, Some folks have no radio and the right to land also!!
It has worked for years, just keep your eyes open and be curtious!

Yes there are pilots that fly without radios. However, the discussion was about a pilot that had a radio. If they called and said they were on base, my assumption is their radio also received.

I concede that radios are not required at uncontrolled airports, but IMHO they do (or at least can, if used properly) increase safety, esp when operating at a busy airport. I've seen some close calls, at least closer than I'm comfortable with, that could have been completely avoided if both aircraft were making proper radio calls.

When it only costs a few hundred bucks to set yourself up with a handheld, I think it's selfish & stupid not to have one. And to have one and not use it seems silly, whether it's in a $12K flivver or a high-end airplane-- earlier post about the million-dollar turbine agplane comes to mind.

Hotrod 180,

I agree that good radio usage should improve safety. I certainly have seen it do so in combat. The most common message there was breaking squelch twice to indicate receipt of a message. All were trained the same and experienced working together to accomplish a common mission.

I have seldom seen this at uncontrolled public use airports nor should I expect it.

In all conflicts I have witnessed at uncontrolled public use airports, one of the aircraft was in good position to see and avoid the other aircraft. Either he did not see or did not avoid.

You are right about the greater safety of having a radio in this respect : Had I been radio equipped, I would have been able to warn the aircraft about to be hit.

Contact

We drive 60mph down a winding county road 3-6' from some other jack ass coming at us at 60mph with nothing but a 6" wide yellow painted line separating us and don't think twice about it.
1/4-1/2 mile final on a long public strip in the valley and someone pulls out in front of you.....some are going to call it a "close call"? We all have a different definition of what a "close call" is.

Terry, so true.

contactflying wrote:.........In all conflicts I have witnessed at uncontrolled public use airports, one of the aircraft was in good position to see and avoid the other aircraft. Either he did not see or did not avoid.
.....

See and avoid is priority one, but nobody's perfect. Can anyone here honestly say they've NEVER heard another aircraft making a position report in or near the traffic pattern that they didn't see first? Just yesterday I heard someone reporting on the 45 which caused me to concentrate my scan over there until I saw them. That was the only call they made BTW.

Like it or not, right or wrong, most pilots today not only "look" for other traffic with their eyes but with their ears also. Like it or not, right or wrong (mainly wrong), a lot of pilots have their heads down (checking their GPS, frequency, checklist, or their facebook page) when they should have their eyes outside scanning for traffic. Proper radio use IN ADDITION TO see-and-avoid may be the pants-and-suspender approach, but if it increases safety (which I'm sure it does, generally speaking) I'm all for it.

Hotrod 180,

Agreed.

Contact

DENNY wrote:For the new pilots reading this post it is going to be confusing on what is the proper way to do things. Like everything in life there are some basic rules and you should have been taught them to get your PPL. Right or wrong from that point on things will change and you have to grow and try to understand why pilots do what they do. When I fly into areas where I do not know the other pilots I am very careful about watching them and making my intentions clear. If you have a friend that wants to do 4 mile finals every time than adjust for that. If you have guys that can stack 4 planes on a 1500 ft strip before you all turn to back taxi, life is good. New pilots/some old ones are not always comfortable about sharing runways with departing /arriving aircraft. The first time I was shown how to fly a 200ft pattern I sure I was going to die. The bottom line is trust no one! If in doubt, hold or go around, and Communicate.
DENNHY

I whole heartedly agree, especially the part "When I fly into areas where I do not know the other pilots". A case in point is my old home base S43 which is a very busy skinny little blacktop small town field with a busy flight school on site and on the weekends it can get very busy. At this field the 45 degree entry is taken for granted. Every pilot who uses S43 regularly knows that the 45 degree entry into the pattern is just what you do here. On a busy day if you come in and make any other kind of approach into the pattern you may have issues. Now, when I fly up to ORS it is a completely different story. There it is known by all that straight in approaches are kosher as well as a number of other approaches into the pattern and you won't tick anybody off as long as you make your intentions known. I guess my point is when going into a strip where you may not know what the "culture" is at that airport to listen, listen...listen to get a feel for what is expected at that local strip. If in doubt, just do the standard 45 degree entry and nobody will be able to fault you for that.

Just to add to what others have already stated on the above topic, I think the only thing done wrong here is that a visual was not made on the base traffic, which would have alerted the departing aircraft to the close proximity. If I hear someone making calls in the pattern for landing I will always get a visual before taking the active even if they are still on the down wind. You never know if a nervous newbie is calling the wrong legs or whatever. If a plane is there, I want to see it before I start rolling. And further,...IMHO the landing aircraft should have simply called the go around and buzzed on by sending the message in a much more classy way than calling out.."EXCUSE MEEEE......"

Earlier in this thread I commented that I was taught to do a 360 before taking the runway, but that I no longer do that, opting instead for turning toward final and checking base and final before passing the hold short line. Well, I came close to a screw-up because I didn't turn far enough, when I left Durango just before Christmas.

I had taxied out, listening to CTAF from the time I left the ramp until I got to the runup area near the end of 21. The radio was silent after one other airplane departed. After doing the runup, I switched to Denver Center to get my clearance. While listening to Center, a Citation said that he was 16 miles out, Durango in sight, so he was cancelling. I didn't hear what direction he was coming from, but 16 miles out at Citation speeds is still at least 5 minutes, assuming he was slowing as he approached the airport.

When I had my clearance, I switched to CTAF and slowly taxied forward toward the hold short line. The taxiway was icy, so instead of turning as sharply as I normally would, I just turned a little and leaned forward to see past the wing--I was afraid I wouldn't be able to straighten out if I turned too sharply. Not seeing anything on base or reasonably short final, I announced that I was departing 21 and started rolling to the hold short line. Only 2 or 3 minutes had elapsed from the time I heard the Citation cancel. At that moment, though, I heard "we're landing, sir". I hit the brakes and stopped just before the hold short line, just as the Citation flew past me at about 100' in the air.

I'm assuming that the Citation made position reports on CTAF, but if so, I didn't hear them because I was listening to Center. I also assume that I didn't see him on base or final because he either flew straight in or flew a much wider pattern. I also assume that he had his landing lights on, because as I took off and he was taxiing back on the parallel taxiway, I could see his lights--I certainly didn't see them while he was in the air.

So while there was no technical conflict or runway incursion, it was close--it could have happened, had I taxied faster, or not announced my intentions, or any number of other things. However, like all flights, I add that one to my learning experience library and vow that it won't happen the same way again. In the future, I'll continue to listen to CTAF on the second radio while I obtain a clearance. I'll also turn the airplane more so that I can see farther up final, even when the taxiway is icy, and I won't start taxiing until a few seconds after announcing my intention to depart to give any other pilot who might be on short base or final the chance to comment.

I've often said that every flight contains a lesson or more, that we're all students at one level or another, and this was proof. Incidentally, just in case the Citation pilot thought that it was closer than I've related, I did timely file a NASA report.

Cary

I used La Plata to load for fields over that way in the 80s. Most of my fields were nearer Ignacio, where I used a short, rocky strip. I had no radio in my red and white Pawnee. I circled and watched for Continental Express, or anybody else, before making a very short base and final to final to the grass between the runway and taxiway. I could see his lights way out on final. Only once did Continental Express see me. I had done three 360s over a green alfalfa field near the runway. He didn't see me there. He saw me land while he was turning onto the taxiway at the departure end of 21. The FBO told me he had complained.

Cary wrote:Earlier in this thread I commented that I was taught to do a 360 before taking the runway, but that I no longer do that, opting instead for turning toward final and checking base and final before passing the hold short line. Well, I came close to a screw-up because I didn't turn far enough, when I left Durango just before Christmas.

I had taxied out, listening to CTAF from the time I left the ramp until I got to the runup area near the end of 21. The radio was silent after one other airplane departed. After doing the runup, I switched to Denver Center to get my clearance. While listening to Center, a Citation said that he was 16 miles out, Durango in sight, so he was cancelling. I didn't hear what direction he was coming from, but 16 miles out at Citation speeds is still at least 5 minutes, assuming he was slowing as he approached the airport.

When I had my clearance, I switched to CTAF and slowly taxied forward toward the hold short line. The taxiway was icy, so instead of turning as sharply as I normally would, I just turned a little and leaned forward to see past the wing--I was afraid I wouldn't be able to straighten out if I turned too sharply. Not seeing anything on base or reasonably short final, I announced that I was departing 21 and started rolling to the hold short line. Only 2 or 3 minutes had elapsed from the time I heard the Citation cancel. At that moment, though, I heard "we're landing, sir". I hit the brakes and stopped just before the hold short line, just as the Citation flew past me at about 100' in the air.

I'm assuming that the Citation made position reports on CTAF, but if so, I didn't hear them because I was listening to Center. I also assume that I didn't see him on base or final because he either flew straight in or flew a much wider pattern. I also assume that he had his landing lights on, because as I took off and he was taxiing back on the parallel taxiway, I could see his lights--I certainly didn't see them while he was in the air.

So while there was no technical conflict or runway incursion, it was close--it could have happened, had I taxied faster, or not announced my intentions, or any number of other things. However, like all flights, I add that one to my learning experience library and vow that it won't happen the same way again. In the future, I'll continue to listen to CTAF on the second radio while I obtain a clearance. I'll also turn the airplane more so that I can see farther up final, even when the taxiway is icy, and I won't start taxiing until a few seconds after announcing my intention to depart to give any other pilot who might be on short base or final the chance to comment.

I've often said that every flight contains a lesson or more, that we're all students at one level or another, and this was proof. Incidentally, just in case the Citation pilot thought that it was closer than I've related, I did timely file a NASA report.

Cary

Interesting story, thanx for posting. I guess the lesson is to develop good habits but always expect the unexpected. Your account brings up an important lesson to VFR flyers landing and departing using the basic pattern "rules". If there is an instrument approach at the field we must be alert to the fact that there may be a fast mover coming in IFR who may not (even probably not) be using the "pattern" that the VFR people are using. Usually they will switched over to the CTAF in plenty of time to alert any VFR pilots in the area, but who knows, it's something that all VFR pilots need to be thinking about when operating around an uncontrolled airport that has an instrument approach especially if it is an ILS where a fast mover may be dropping out of a low overcast on final at any time.

whynotfly wrote: I guess my point is when going into a strip where you may not know what the "culture" is at that airport to listen, listen...listen to get a feel for what is expected at that local strip.

Big plus one on that point.

Some places certainly seem to have a culture of different unwritten but widely accepted non-standard procedures. It's fine if you are local and know about it, but some guys won't realise.

Then again, there is always some anally retentive pilot who requires 1.5 NM clear air between them and the next plane, is unwilling to extend downwind to make room for traffic, won't fly a slower circuit to keep timing, etc etc. I think we've all seen it before.

Battson wrote:

whynotfly wrote: I guess my point is when going into a strip where you may not know what the "culture" is at that airport to listen, listen...listen to get a feel for what is expected at that local strip.

Big plus one on that point.

Some places certainly seem to have a culture of different unwritten but widely accepted non-standard procedures. It's fine if you are local and know about it, but some guys won't realise.

Then again, there is always some anally retentive pilot who requires 1.5 NM clear air between them and the next plane, is unwilling to extend downwind to make room for traffic, won't fly a slower circuit to keep timing, etc etc. I think we've all seen it before.

And to add to this, how about that small uncontrolled strip where everybody knows everybody and their calls nearing the pattern may sound like this: "Cessna 844Bravo crossing the bend in the river for landing on 33" ...or "844Bravo at Betty's chicken farm, landing on 15". Now if your new to the area, chances are you haven't a clue as to where the bend in the river is or where Betty's chicken farm is. We probably all are guilty of it ourselves at our home field, you know, that home field "culture". I have no problem with using some locally well known land marks to enhance my position reports, but now I always make a practice to include the important stuff as well, such as: "Cessna 844Bravo crossing the bend in the river, turning into a two mile 45 to enter left downwind for 33" etc... This way the transient arrival getting close who has no clue what bend in the river you are talking about still has a good idea where you are.

whynotfly wrote:

Cary wrote:Earlier in this thread I commented that I was taught to do a 360 before taking the runway, but that I no longer do that, opting instead for turning toward final and checking base and final before passing the hold short line. Well, I came close to a screw-up because I didn't turn far enough, when I left Durango just before Christmas.

I had taxied out, listening to CTAF from the time I left the ramp until I got to the runup area near the end of 21. The radio was silent after one other airplane departed. After doing the runup, I switched to Denver Center to get my clearance. While listening to Center, a Citation said that he was 16 miles out, Durango in sight, so he was cancelling. I didn't hear what direction he was coming from, but 16 miles out at Citation speeds is still at least 5 minutes, assuming he was slowing as he approached the airport.

When I had my clearance, I switched to CTAF and slowly taxied forward toward the hold short line. The taxiway was icy, so instead of turning as sharply as I normally would, I just turned a little and leaned forward to see past the wing--I was afraid I wouldn't be able to straighten out if I turned too sharply. Not seeing anything on base or reasonably short final, I announced that I was departing 21 and started rolling to the hold short line. Only 2 or 3 minutes had elapsed from the time I heard the Citation cancel. At that moment, though, I heard "we're landing, sir". I hit the brakes and stopped just before the hold short line, just as the Citation flew past me at about 100' in the air.

I'm assuming that the Citation made position reports on CTAF, but if so, I didn't hear them because I was listening to Center. I also assume that I didn't see him on base or final because he either flew straight in or flew a much wider pattern. I also assume that he had his landing lights on, because as I took off and he was taxiing back on the parallel taxiway, I could see his lights--I certainly didn't see them while he was in the air.

So while there was no technical conflict or runway incursion, it was close--it could have happened, had I taxied faster, or not announced my intentions, or any number of other things. However, like all flights, I add that one to my learning experience library and vow that it won't happen the same way again. In the future, I'll continue to listen to CTAF on the second radio while I obtain a clearance. I'll also turn the airplane more so that I can see farther up final, even when the taxiway is icy, and I won't start taxiing until a few seconds after announcing my intention to depart to give any other pilot who might be on short base or final the chance to comment.

I've often said that every flight contains a lesson or more, that we're all students at one level or another, and this was proof. Incidentally, just in case the Citation pilot thought that it was closer than I've related, I did timely file a NASA report.

Cary

Interesting story, thanx for posting. I guess the lesson is to develop good habits but always expect the unexpected. Your account brings up an important lesson to VFR flyers landing and departing using the basic pattern "rules". If there is an instrument approach at the field we must be alert to the fact that there may be a fast mover coming in IFR who may not (even probably not) be using the "pattern" that the VFR people are using. Usually they will switched over to the CTAF in plenty of time to alert any VFR pilots in the area, but who knows, it's something that all VFR pilots need to be thinking about when operating around an uncontrolled airport that has an instrument approach especially if it is an ILS where a fast mover may be dropping out of a low overcast on final at any time.

In this case, all of the approaches to Durango are for Runway 3, and I was departing on 21. The Citation wasn't on an instrument approach because I heard him cancel, and so he was either on a wide pattern coming from the south or a straight in coming from the north. With the ceilings as high as they were (about 9000' MSL, or roughly 2300' AGL) and unlimited visibility, I think I would have seen him had I turned farther to be able to see farther up final. So mea culpa for not doing that. I'm just glad it worked out OK due to my early departure announcement and slow taxi speed, and the Citation pilot's immediate statement that they were landing.

But you make a good point. A low ceiling may be plenty high for local VFR traffic to be in the pattern, but IFR traffic might pop out of that ceiling. I know that I've forgotten to make a CTAF call coming IFR into non-towered airports, especially when it's a tight approach. I've never had a conflict, but it could have happened. I try to make the CTAF call right after ATC clears me to change frequencies, but on a tight approach, sometimes I'm busier staying on course and glideslope and it just slips past me.

On the position calls over local waypoints, I recommend doing this: announce over the local point, but also announce a standard position report. For instance, when I'm landing on 10 at KGXY, my home drome, I'll typically make a standard 45 onto downwind, which goes right over a major feedlot. So I'll announce, "Greeley Weld traffic, Cessna xxx over the feedlot on a 45 to downwind for 10." Same idea when I'm landing on 15 at KFNL: "Fort Collins Loveland traffic, Cessna xxx is over Walmart Distribution, on a 45 to downwind for 15." That tells the locals exactly where I am and transients approximately where I am.

Of course, that doesn't help you if you're the transient, and sometimes all of it can get pretty silly. Especially people who aren't used to a busy pattern can get pretty frustrated. I was landing at KFNL about 3 weeks ago and while I was still some 5 miles northwest, I overheard a conversation that went something like this:
A: Fort Love traffic, Cessna xxx 5 miles southeast, landing 15 at Fort Love.
B: Fort Collins Loveland, Cessna yyy. I'm also 5 miles southeast. How high are you?
A: I'm at 6500'.
B: So am I! But I don't see you.
A: I have you in sight, don't worry about it.
B: That's good but am I in front of you?
A: No I'm on your left.
B: OK, I'm going to extend my downwind so you can land.
A: No need, you're faster than I am.

Just about that time another airplane called in, "Fort Collins Loveland, Cherokee aaa is on a 3 mile base for 15."

B: Cherokee, where on base are you?
C: Now I'm on a 2 mile base for 15.
B: Is that a right base or a left base?
C: Left base--right base isn't legal here.
B: OK, but I don't see you.
C: I have you in sight. I'm at your 4 o'clock.
B: I'm leaving the pattern--this is too much for me.



Cary

Cary wrote:B: I'm leaving the pattern--this is too much for me.



Cary

Haha, I've been there. Trouble is, sometimes it's more dangerous to leave. I really hate the asterisk shaped places, I got in a jackpot in Logan, Utah once with too many planes using different runways. I was lined up with the wind, and stayed the course because I was afraid to do anything else. Got buzzed bad, head on, by another plane that sidestepped, so I was ready for an ass chewing when he came in. Instead he apologized profusely for whatever he'd done. I admitted that I wasn't real confident either in the pecking order, but tried to look professional by landing against the wind. I never really knew who had the right of way out of 5 planes stepping on each other.

Pretty tough to beat distance & direction making a position report--
"3 southwest 45 entry landing 27 left traffic" for example works well, tells the whole story, and you don't have to know the local landmarks to figure it out. I sometimes use the landmarks at airports where they do that, but always throw in distance & direction -- "3 northwest at Island Crossing 45 entry landing 34 left traffic" for example.

As far as maneuvering and/or bailing due unseen (but reported) close traffic-- I've seen (and done it myself) a 360 on downwind, etc, but it's probably not the best thing to do. I think it's probably better to just go straight ahead if you see the way is clear. I was riding with a friend in this situation, she was on base & someone else reported the same position, I forget what she wanted to do but I told her to just continue straight ahead and depart the pattern from the base leg, since we could see that the way ahead was clear. Turns out the other airplane was NOT where they said they were (big surprise!), but we were good to go either way.