Presenty have 96 hours TT in R22 & R44s. Next week will be located in Oregon landing on logging roads for practice in R44.

Background: I was trained to land perpendicular to a slope. Preferably right skid uphill (translating tendency) with CCW MR. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/helicopter_flying_handbook/

Helicopter Handbook, FAA-H-8083-21A, Chapter 10-7 Helicopter Slope Operations states:

Slope Landing
A pilot usually lands a helicopter across the slope is preferable, rather than with the slope. Landing with the helicopter facing down the slope or downhill is not recommended because of the possibility of striking the tail rotor on the surface.

Question: I understand landing across the slope and to not land TR uphill. However, looking for reasons not to land TR down slope. Certainly at some point the MR would chop the cabin off or hit the uphill terrain. But, let’s say a 5 degree or less slope pointing the ship upslope?

References:

FAA-H-8083-21A, Chapter 11-3
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/helicopter_flying_handbook/media/hfh_ch11.pdf

Refer to Figure 11-7. The following conditions are most critical for helicopters with counterclockwise rotor rotation:
1. Right side skid or landing wheel down, since translating tendency adds to the rollover force.
2. Right lateral center of gravity (CG).
3. Crosswinds from the left.
4. Left yaw inputs.

FAA-H-8083-21A, Chapter 11-3

Slope Takeoffs and Landings
During slope operations, excessive application of cyclic control into the slope, together with excessive collective pitch control, can result in the downslope skid or landing wheel rising sufficiently to exceed lateral cyclic control limits, and an upslope rolling motion can occur. [Figure 11-8]
When performing slope takeoff and landing maneuvers, follow the published procedures and keep the roll rates small. Slowly raise the downslope skid or wheel to bring the helicopter level, and then lift off. During landing, first touch down on the upslope skid or wheel, then slowly lower the downslope skid or wheel using combined movements of cyclic and collective. If the helicopter rolls approximately 5–8° to the upslope side, decrease collective to correct the bank angle and return to level attitude, then start the landing procedure again

If I wanted to learn more I'd source an experienced helicopter company with pilot/instructors that flew similar helicopters and specialized in backcountry flight. For example: http://tanalianaviation.com and inquire about training.

Gary

PA1195 wrote:If I wanted to learn more I'd source an experienced helicopter company with pilot/instructors that flew similar helicopters and specialized in backcountry flight. For example: http://tanalianaviation.com and inquire about training.

Gary

Very good point. Variety of opinion on the subject however, so also would like comments here from “Backcountry Helicopter Pilots”. Or even non pilots if it makes sense.

Looking at Leading Edge Aviation in Bend, Oregon and will be training there hopefully for SFAR, recurrence etc. Bend has some significant mountains/weather in which to train. They seem like really nice folks, visited their operation last month.

Thank you for the link http://tanalianaviation.com. I may give them a call too. In fact anybody who has helicopter flight training recommendations, please forward to me. I’m working on commercial standards now, and will most likely use Mauna Loa in Kona for check-ride.

Treat every landing in a helicopter like a slope landing.

Generally I prefer to land facing upslope with a little side slope from the right, with a counterclockwise rotor helicopter at least. Like you mentioned the translating tendency will keep the right skid a bit higher, most lightly loaded helicopters will be a few degrees nose up in a hover too. A slope from about 1 o’clock would have skids landing mostly flat in calm conditions.

No real problem landing upslope, up to your slope landing limitation anyways...forgot what it is in an R44, ten degrees maybe? Try that on a side slope and dynamic rollover becomes a very real possibility.

Set your attitude indicator while on level ground, so you have a better chance at staying within the limitations.
Keep in mind the terrain you’re landing on, too. A hard dirt surface with loose rocks or pebbles might have you sliding backwards on a 10 degree upslope, but would work fine on a grass field. On that same note, if the grass field is also soft enough, the back skids will sink in and when you get out, the helicopter might end up on it’s tail skid! So many things to consider!


Practice gets you closer to perfect!

bart wrote:Treat every landing in a helicopter like a slope landing.

Generally I prefer to land facing upslope with a little side slope to the right, with a counterclockwise rotor helicopter at least. Like you mentioned the translating tendency will keep the right skid a bit higher, most lightly loaded helicopters will be a few degrees nose up in a hover too. A slope from about 1 o’clock would have skids landing mostly flat in calm conditions.

No real problem landing upslope, up to your slope landing limitation anyways...forgot what it is in an R44, ten degrees maybe? Try that on a side slope and dynamic rollover becomes a very real possibility.

Set your attitude indicator while on level ground, so you have a better chance at staying within the limitations.
Keep in mind the terrain you’re landing on, too. A hard dirt surface with loose rocks or pebbles might have you sliding backwards on a 10 degree upslope, but would work fine on a grass field.

Practice gets you closer to perfect!

Thank you Bart for your generous information and insight! I flew by Fresno in November from RHC to Oregon!

I see what you are referring to. The ship most likely will be nose/right-skid high and using the terrain to benefit. Good info. However, unusual loading/winds could change attitude and preclude this or exaggerate.

I don’t have an AI just a TC and inclinometer (ball). The ball looks half displaced at about 5 degrees. But, I am not sure. Next week, hopefully will have some video of off airport semi-mountain flying.

No reason nose upslope shouldn’t be preferred within your slope limits.

It’s also (personally) more comfortable than sideslopes. I’ve landed 15 degree sideslopes and always feel like I’m about to fall out. Nose up feels more comfortable to me if you’ve got a good purchase with your skids/wheels.

I wouldn’t recommend slopes in loose ground unless it was a necessity. Too easy to find an extra few degrees after the collective has been lowered.

Also, translating tendencies are just another thing that must be overcome by the pilot. Just like anything else in flying, we compensate for the aircraft’s compromises. Build up in your practice, but don’t avoid maneuvers because of compensations required.

CamTom12 wrote:No reason nose upslope shouldn’t be preferred within your slope limits.

It’s also (personally) more comfortable than sideslopes. I’ve landed 15 degree sideslopes and always feel like I’m about to fall out. Nose up feels more comfortable to me if you’ve got a good purchase with your skids/wheels.

I wouldn’t recommend slopes in loose ground unless it was a necessity. Too easy to find an extra few degrees after the collective has been lowered.

Also, translating tendencies are just another thing that must be overcome by the pilot. Just like anything else in flying, we compensate for the aircraft’s compromises. Build up in your practice, but don’t avoid maneuvers because of compensations required.

Makes sense. Very good. Will practice (very cautiously).

Translating tendency, transient torque, precession, p factor, etc. We learn about stuff to not be surprised. Using this knowledge helps, but we're still just a bit behind. Unless we're already moving the controls anyway.

contactflying wrote:Translating tendency, transient torque, precession, p factor, etc. We learn about stuff to not be surprised. Using this knowledge helps, but we're still just a bit behind. Unless we're already moving the controls anyway.

I know what you mean. Getting ahead and staying ahead of the ship is paramount. Even more so in adverse conditions...wind, rough terrain, slopes, snow, rain, etc.

I appreciate your input Jim. I looking forward to more discussions with you regarding helicopter flight.

Thanks!

I like to do like Bart and favour a slight uphill to the right. Most helicopters I fly have slope limitations, and even if there aren't any you lower collective down real slow and precise in case you reach a cyclic limit and you are not yet full on the ground (treat every landing like an off-level). Facing uphill has two challenges, you may run out of forward cyclic before getting the skids fully on the ground and when you try to leave all the helicopter does is slide backward until the heels dig into to something, and then you're stuck. Secondly, the CG is usually all the way back just ahead of the rear crossbar. You might think you're secure, friction up and step outside to relieve yourself and find the helicopter tilting up to rest on the tailskid. 10 degrees can feel like a lot, some types like the 500 can take more by being a little creative and dynamic, but I wouldn't try that with the 44.

Had a low-time friend land on a muddy road with a 206. Went to lift off and one skid stuck more to the mud than the other and he rolled it over. He could have jiggled the pedals as he pulled collective real slow, but at his hours he didn't have that feel yet.

Only time I'll land in more than a very slight downhill is just ahead of a hump so that the tail is left high and clear. Too steep and again on lift-off you can't get enough aft cyclic to level the helicopter and all you do is slide yourself downhill.

Be slow and cautious and you should be fine. The 44 is a pretty forgiving helicopter with good ground characteristics. I was flying a non-AFCS Bell230 the other day and the first 10 minutes were kinda ropey until I recalibrated my hands and feet. Wished I'd tuned myself up with a Robbie ahead of time.

In my first Hughes 269 (Mattel Messerschmitt) solo into a red tire confined area at Ft. Wolters, I stepped off the right skid to do the lay the sticks out thing taught for hover taxi back to start of takeoff position. The helicopter pitched up and I immediately stepped back on. I was on some Possum Kingdom ledgy rock. I got in, taxied back, took off, and never did the lay the sticks out thing ever again.

Karmutzen wrote:I like to do like Bart and favour a slight uphill to the right. Most helicopters I fly have slope limitations, and even if there aren't any you lower collective down real slow and precise in case you reach a cyclic limit and you are not yet full on the ground (treat every landing like an off-level).

I completely understand now “...(treat every landing like an off-level)...”.

Karmutzen wrote:Facing uphill has two challenges, you may run out of forward cyclic before getting the skids fully on the ground and when you try to leave all the helicopter does is slide backward until the heels dig into to something, and then you're stuck

I see now...The skids are similar to snow skis, in the sense, they will resist sliding perpendicular to the slope. And will slip easily in alignment with the slope. Interesting helicopter skids are completely made to run forward not aft one single bit.

Karmutzen wrote:Secondly, the CG is usually all the way back just ahead of the rear crossbar. You might think you're secure, friction up and step outside to relieve yourself and find the helicopter tilting up to rest on the tailskid. 10 degrees can feel like a lot, some types like the 500 can take more by being a little creative and dynamic, but I wouldn't try that with the 44.

I never thought of that...Very good analysis of W/B on a slope with the helicopter pointed up hill. For an analogy, the ground handling wheels are attached near the aft portion of the skids on the R44 (very near the CG). Only a small amount of force on the tail boom is needed to lift the entire cabin off the ground, as the ship pivots on the wheels.

Had a low-time friend land on a muddy road with a 206. Went to lift off and one skid stuck more to the mud than the other and he rolled it over. He could have jiggled the pedals as he pulled collective real slow, but at his hours he didn't have that feel yet.

I hand an instructor, who I no longer fly with, who rushed things. Very bad. Best to always go slow and feel what’s going on. Very good example: “...He could have jiggled the pedals as he pulled collective real slow, but at his hours he didn't have that feel yet...”.

Only time I'll land in more than a very slight downhill is just ahead of a hump so that the tail is left high and clear. Too steep and again on lift-off you can't get enough aft cyclic to level the helicopter and all you do is slide yourself downhill.

Never thought of that! Very good guidance!

Be slow and cautious and you should be fine. The 44 is a pretty forgiving helicopter with good ground characteristics. I was flying a non-AFCS Bell230 the other day and the first 10 minutes were kinda ropey until I recalibrated my hands and feet. Wished I'd tuned myself up with a Robbie ahead of time.

I am very happy with the little ship! R44 exceeded my expectations so far. Very happy you took the time to address my concerns! Thank you!

Fast dynamic proactive control but slow helicopter is the only safe way in hover work. We Army pilots picked up the very bad habit of doing everything fast around revetments, fuel, and arming point.

contactflying wrote:Fast dynamic proactive control but slow helicopter is the only safe way in hover work. We Army pilots picked up the very bad habit of doing everything fast around revetments, fuel, and arming point.

I definitely concur, about rushing. It’s a bad habit I taught myself and struggled to amend.

On the coast of Oregon, winds can be significant. When flying I am learning to ride out the gusts, wait and then continue with a set down close to the surface. Going slow and having patience is a significant factor in situational awareness. Generally, helicopters can land in many different areas, so if conditions aren’t great we can go to another spot on the airport or off airport.

Thank you!

Dave Trujillo, a 717th Med pilot, was the best pilot and crew trainer I ever flew with. When he said, "Nose coming left, tail coming right," he absolutely would not move until I said, "Nose clear left," the medic said, "tail clear right," and the crew chief said, "tail clear left." I well remember sitting in a hover a full minute waiting for myself or a crewman to wake up. Dave's training technique worked extremely well.

contactflying wrote:Dave Trujillo, a 717th Med pilot, was the best pilot and crew trainer I ever flew with. When he said, "Nose coming left, tail coming right," he absolutely would not move until I said, "Nose clear left," the medic said, "tail clear right," and the crew chief said, "tail clear left." I well remember sitting in a hover a full minute waiting for myself or a crewman to wake up. Dave's training technique worked extremely well.

Communication is paramount. You present an extremely important example pertaining to training. I admire the discipline and that type of dedication.

Same concept when fishing. The boat can become very chaotic and without complete communication it can become a bitch to deal with. If a person is quiet and introverted they generally do not make good deck hands.

Karmutzen wrote:I like to do like Bart and favour a slight uphill to the right. Most helicopters I fly have slope limitations, and even if there aren't any you lower collective down real slow and precise in case you reach a cyclic limit and you are not yet full on the ground (treat every landing like an off-level). Facing uphill has two challenges, you may run out of forward cyclic before getting the skids fully on the ground and when you try to leave all the helicopter does is slide backward until the heels dig into to something, and then you're stuck. Secondly, the CG is usually all the way back just ahead of the rear crossbar. You might think you're secure, friction up and step outside to relieve yourself and find the helicopter tilting up to rest on the tailskid. 10 degrees can feel like a lot, some types like the 500 can take more by being a little creative and dynamic, but I wouldn't try that with the 44.

Had a low-time friend land on a muddy road with a 206. Went to lift off and one skid stuck more to the mud than the other and he rolled it over. He could have jiggled the pedals as he pulled collective real slow, but at his hours he didn't have that feel yet.

Only time I'll land in more than a very slight downhill is just ahead of a hump so that the tail is left high and clear. Too steep and again on lift-off you can't get enough aft cyclic to level the helicopter and all you do is slide yourself downhill.

Be slow and cautious and you should be fine. The 44 is a pretty forgiving helicopter with good ground characteristics. I was flying a non-AFCS Bell230 the other day and the first 10 minutes were kinda ropey until I recalibrated my hands and feet. Wished I'd tuned myself up with a Robbie ahead of time.

I was going to insert my 2 cents worth, but Karmutzen said it about as well as it could be said. Oh, what the hell – it's a lousy rainy low-ceiling day, and I've got nothing better to do...

I used to be an Instructor Pilot in the Army, and trained a LOT of National Guard and Reserve pilots to proficiency with Night Vision Goggles (the old AN-PVS-5s with a 10º field of view!). One of the Army requirements for NVG sign-offs was proficiency with slope takeoffs and landings. (Also the complete gamut of full touchdown autorotations – but that's another story for another night.)

Of course, being the Army, we had to do training for slope landings "cross-slope" every time, but I came to understand the logic when operating with high-time Guard and Reserve pilots (Vietnam vets who tended to do everything a bit fast, like Contact said). Those guys were good pilots, but were still learning the scan techniques required with the NVG's narrow field of view. I used to tell them "If I can feel you moving the collective lever, you're going too fast..." (A bit of exaggeration, but it got the point across.) Pausing while light on the skids (then again when only one skid was still planted) was paramount to get the "feel" for how the helicopter was going to "unstick" from the ground. Being able to feel the helicopter react to small movements of the anti-torque pedals was equally critical. If it wouldn't yaw with the pedals, or if it required more than a tiny bit of lateral cyclic, you likely had a "stuck" skid and needed to plan accordingly.

Slow and steady wins the race, and helps young pilots become old pilots...

You might want to consider coming to Canada for training. More helicopters here per capita than nearly anywhere, and most of it is highly technical work to boot. The really crappy exchange rate right now also makes it pretty favorable for Americans to get specialty training here as well.


Instructors up here on helicopters are rarely low-time hour builders either....almost all are old industry guys.


Something to think about.

I don't think anyone here has mentioned droop stop pounding or mast bumping as a slope limitation. In addition to slope angle limits, such as the 5 degrees mentioned above, certain helicopters have control displacement limits that could be exceeded during slope landings.

I have landed on some crazy steep slopes without exceeding those limits. Upslope landings in a single rotor helicopter with a tail rotor could allow for enough needed forward cyclic to bump the stops...

Kilo India wrote:I don't think anyone here has mentioned droop stop pounding or mast bumping as a slope limitation. In addition to slope angle limits, such as the 5 degrees mentioned above, certain helicopters have control displacement limits that could be exceeded during slope landings.

I have landed on some crazy steep slopes without exceeding those limits. Upslope landings in a single rotor helicopter with a tail rotor could allow for enough needed forward cyclic to bump the stops...

Very good point and well taken. One unusual issue I encountered that wasn’t mentioned in my primary training was a quasi “Ground resonance” bouncing. From my understanding, impossible to get a fully developed and destructive “Ground resonance” in semi-ridge MRB’s. Only fully articulated can be damaged, I have been advised.

Here’s what happened:

I was landing on a logging road with a pretty significant slope but, well within the cyclic limits and my perceived pilot’s ability. It was low light as usual, being in the Northern Latitudes. So, I was being extra cautious. Unbeknownst, there was a high spot that acted like a fulcrum on the skids. I didn’t notice the high spot until I started to lower the collective and the ship started rocking back and forth pretty hard. She didn’t want to land! I pulled up and was pretty darn “Shaken” (excuse the pun). Never forget that! Interesting form of instability.

Anyway, I am fortunately, gaining confidence very slowly and exploring a little bit more out of my comfort zone when able and safe.

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In case you haven’t seen my Memorial Day Weekend semi-VLOG thread:

https://backcountrypilot.org/community/forum/latest/2019-05-26-beautiful-sunday-22368?p=325324#p325324

Disclaimer: the following video is also in another thread (above). Please forgive the dual post!