I like that Denny. Like not dumping though, sometimes we get really busy and have few seconds to fly the airplane. Low level forced landing happens in less than time to read this.

contactflying wrote:I like that Denny. Like not dumping though, sometimes we get really busy and have few seconds to fly the airplane. Low level forced landing happens in less than time to read this.

Yes we do get busy, the worst ones are when you get time to think what might happen like a partial engine failure or control problems.

Dumping should be a reflex, dump then take what actions you are going to take. Dumping and nose down should be one action, one arm pushing forward on the dump lever the other poling forward to try and retain some control. Have you seen anybody just taken an organochlorine bath? You don't get long for first aid. I have even heard of first responders not going to pull pilots out of wrecks for fear of chem contamination even though there were no hazardous substance onboard. Even if the substance is non toxic, dump it.

Can’t say that I agree on always dumping. Several times blowing cylinders the plane was still flying, although you could feel it slowly getting behind the curve. I’m in a fairly populated area with a diverse crop mix, so dumping a 100 ac herbicide load could mean a lawsuit that exceeds my insurance limits. Using a little aviating to get back to the strip was a better option than dumping. On other occasions I’ve had to lighten the load to make it back or get off a muddy strip, just choose wisely where you dump if you must.

I agree that dumping is a nonevent if you train for it and know what to expect. In an Ag Cat, if you leave the gate meter in the same place that you would for fertilizing, it gives you a controllable rate dumping liquid.

I had an engine out several years ago just east of Wells Nevada. Put it down on I-80. Did not hurt a thing. Now if that was over the Sawtooths it could have ended badly

Centre hill, yes there are exceptions. Partial power loss is not a reason to dump, along with people or susceptible crops in the vicinity. As Contact said at low level it's all split second stuff.

A couple points:

The new generation of ag airplanes are probably the safest aircraft ever built to crash in....a very good crash structure.

You don’t always have very good choices of where. I’ve had three engine “failures”, only one of which the engine quit. The other two the engine rolled back to idle...so similar result. Two were in seaplanes, and over water......easy decision....just land. Then slow taxi to shore at idle.

Third was in mountains, no nice places, I chose a burned area vs trees. Got there, barely, but no height left so landed. Busted plane but no injuries. To me, there was nowhere else on that mountainside I wanted to land. Later I flew up there and came to the same conclusion.

Sometimes, you get handed a shit sandwich and are told to take a bite. Just arrive slow as possible, wherever you land.

MTV

That is why they all look alike. Pilot as far from engine as possible. Also as high as possible for visibility and to be on the trailing edge of the wing for energy absorption. Hopper in front of pilot so product goes on engine and not on pilot. Gear goes away on any airframe, any kind of gear. It is the low wing, in mono or bi, that saves the pilot. And a steel tubing cage. Slower but flying, not falling is best in any aircraft. With high wing slow is more critical to keep engine in front of pilot because the wing will not absorb the energy. In high wing, the pilot lands before the wing lands. Exception is between two trees spaced right, as Denny mentioned. I never had opportunity to try that one.

In Vietnam Bart autorotated to the second canopy between loach eaters (sparse third canopy). We ended up in the bamboo, the first canopy.

I’d make sure I had bushwheels on and do “hydroplaning the wheels” towards the timbered bank making sure I come to a stop as the wheels roll up on dry land.

In reality, like MTV said, it depends. For me I’m pretty much always going to choose the trees. I can’t swim and on top of that my kids can’t get out of the back seat very easily without help. I might choose the water if it is shallow and I can put it down close to the bank.

This is literally the stuff my nightmares are made of.

Whee, have you done any prop stopped landings? Find a 6,000' runway and go up to about 6,000 feet, pull mixture and shut down prop. It will take ages to stop, you have to slow right up. The aircraft have a completely different glide angle (Flatter glide) and feel with no prop wash over controls. Flair or flare however it's spelt is completely different. You can always start the engine again if you have badly misjudged. If you have flap as well as sideslip you can vary your approach angle a lot. After a while you get pretty good at judging ground roll and can roll to a stop on your tiedowns.
It's a good exercise in judgement. Some will say it will wreck your engine, others will cry too dangerous. If you cool off after the climb by cruising around for a while low power before you stop the prop and warm up after you start again, no harm will come.

I use to use semi-zero thrust landings; not a full shutdown, towing sailplane. After release, a cool down the engine for a bit and thereafter an idle descent to a full stop landing. The point to his is the planning, this discussion is great for the “toolbox” it’s awareness that will keep you alive. It was instilled in me from Day 1 to always have an out (I started in sailplanes) but the same applies to single engine operations as well. Be forever vigilant, be aware of the terrain below and the “options” it offers please.

Once again the wealthy of knowledge and experience of this site has proven itself one more time, MTV, OldFart, Contactflying, Dogpilot and all others thank you.

Much of the beautiful, rugged Western mountain terrain that is fun to fly over recreationally has no likely survivable LZ's. But I still want to fly there and fly low. So for less than 10% of the value of my little Aerotrek A220, I'm having a BRS chute installed.



(Stock photo.)

On forced landing one thing to think about is the color of the crash sit, it will come in handy when you are low and trying to make a quick choice while also scanning the dash for an issue. This takes a knowledge of the local vegetation and what it looks like at different times of the year. For example in alaska gray is almost always a great color to crash at. It would be dry grass/shale. Red is usually very low bushes over tundra in the fall. Yellow in the fall is alders 5-15 ft tall or birch. In the summer very light green grass is usually in standing water. the darker green is usually dry but may have a lot of tussocks. The brown stuff around the edge of ponds can be wet but usually not overly tall. When you do your off field landing go for a walk and start to find the color you would like to crash in.
DENNY

More wise words, thanks DENNY

I went through Navy water survival egress training about 20 years ago. Four or so people in a "helicopter" and they dunk us in the pool, turn the device upside down, and out you go. Two times with a blindfold on. Here are my takeaways:

1. Grab a big breath of air as late as possible.
2. Don't unbuckle yourself until the water stops coming in.
3. Make sure you can get out. I have a windshield breaker in my survival vest pocket just in case.
4. Never let go until you're clear. Always have a hand on something that will lead you out. Door frame, window frame, something to keep you oriented.

Based on that experience, a ditching is my last choice of where to land and I almost never fly over water out of gliding distance from terra firma. In addition to the egress and drowning part, you are also soaking wet which as we all know complicates any survival situation. It will be worse for my passengers who haven't had the dunk tank training or can't get out of the back seat. The one exception might be if I'm out in Idaho somewhere and lose an engine. I might pick a river landing instead of a 30 degree forested slope. One other scenario where I might wind up in the water: I would be willing to fly from Florida to the Bahamas with the back seat empty (warm water, lots of people, etc) but never Homer to Kodiak.

I am of the opinion, and I think it is supportable by fact, that almost any forced landing is survivable if you impact at the slowest possible speed and with the wings level. Certainly the odds are better if you are in control so that's Job #1 in this scenario.

Finally, because of discussions like this on this and other web boards, I built and always wear a survival vest. At least I will have the bare necessities if all else is lost.

If I go up to 6,000' i've landed

Nice, just don't fly over Zion, steep cliffs. Don't think a chute would do much good there.

I like the color BLACK, usually a paved runway.

I did the one day water egress training with Bryan Webster (aka "Bry the Dunk Guy") in BC and I highly recommend it. Pilots who I felt were better than me have left the gear down on their amphib and gone swimming.

Once you've had the training, you'll look at ditching differently. If you operate over and/or on water much, you'll wear your PFD, not just have it "available".

Pierre

Mapleflt wrote:If its to be trees I was taught many years ago too aim between the two tallest ones. The theory being it peels the wings off and takes the fuel tanks as far away from the rest of the bits & pieces as possible.

I've heard a good story attributed to an old flight instructor in Indiana about a student on a solo x-c: engine quit away from home over farm country, student made a forced landing and called in from a farm house. Instructor drove out to discover that the student had found the only two trees anywhere around, which happened to be close together, and aimed the plane between them on account of having been taught that theory. Evidently it works, including when surrounded by miles of empty fields!

What would happen if you waterskied up to the point you nosed over? More or less violent than stalling it in ground effect at minimum airspeed just above the water? (Cessna 100-series, Sportsman, etc). I had a 180J that a friend used up going down in birches. The fact that it was on floats which crumpled had a lot to do with his favorable outcome (not so for my 180). The other thing that I believe helped was that the birches were smallish diameter and supple and served to absorb a lot of the impact by bending and breaking- followed by a comparatively short drop to the ground. Come to think of it, that's two friends who have put Skywagons into smaller tree stands and walked away. The other was into spruce on wheels.

-DP