Backcountry Pilot • FSDO and falsified logs

FSDO and falsified logs

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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

mtv wrote:..A 100 hour inspection can be done at any time......no requirement to actually have flown 100 hours. If you prefer to have incorrect entries in your logbooks, so be it......you get what you pay for. :D MTV


I agree that you can do a hundred-hour inspection any time.
But please cite me the reg or AC that says an annual inspection signoff in the engine or prop book is "incorrect".
Like I said, several different IA's have endorsed my engine & prop logs for an "annual inspection".
Generally speaking, an annual inspection is more stringent than a hundred hour--
and a hunded hour can be signed off by an A&P, an IA is required for an annual.
And like I also said, one IA I know says no signoff in the engine book is required--
the airframe logbook "annual inspection" endorsement covers it all.
I'm not necessarily agreeing with him....
just pointing out that there's lots of different interpretations of the regs.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

hotrod180 wrote:
mtv wrote:..A 100 hour inspection can be done at any time......no requirement to actually have flown 100 hours. If you prefer to have incorrect entries in your logbooks, so be it......you get what you pay for. :D MTV


I agree that you can do a hundred-hour inspection any time.
But please cite me the reg or AC that says an annual inspection signoff in the engine or prop book is "incorrect".
Like I said, several different IA's have endorsed my engine & prop logs for an "annual inspection".
Generally speaking, an annual inspection is more stringent than a hundred hour--
and a hunded hour can be signed off by an A&P, an IA is required for an annual.
And like I also said, one IA I know says no signoff in the engine book is required--
the airframe logbook "annual inspection" endorsement covers it all.
I'm not necessarily agreeing with him....
just pointing out that there's lots of different interpretations of the regs.


Geeeeez, FYI, the smiley emoticon was intended to imply I was yanking your chain.... #-o .

But, first the only difference between a 100 hour inspection and an annual inspection is the annual includes a requirement to search and verify compliance with ADs, and the annual must be signed off by an A&P with Inspection Authorization (an IA).

An A&P can sign off an 100 hour inspection in the US. But not an annual.

When I was getting paid to fly, all our inspections were signed off as annuals, because our wrenches were IAs and our planes often worked in places where getting an inspection done was hard. That way, as long as the plane was current for 100 hour, it was also current for annual. Since ADs were tracked carefully, an AD search was no big deal.

There is no rule which says NOT to sign off an annual for a prop or engine, it’s just not required. And, technically, there is no such thing. I can give you our local 83 year old IAs' phone number if you’d like the less polite version.... :lol:

And, note, that emoticon was also intended as a poke. Take it for what it’s worth.

MTV
Last edited by mtv on Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

Here's a popular link that discusses "may" vs "required" when documenting annual inspections:

https://www.askbob.aero/node/3966

As an aircraft record keeper that has met with the Administrator's representative (the local FSDO) regarding records falsified by a local A&P (who was not yet an IA), I can assure you it's best to have documentation of the work performed on the airframe, engine, and propeller. Another aircraft owner complained to the FSDO so they brought in others that had dealt with the A&P, me included.

FSDO: Please show me your records.
Me: Here they are.
Later after review > FSDO: Ok, thanks as an owner you've complied with (something like this link):

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... _CHG_2.pdf

End of story.

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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

A1Skinner wrote:[
It's amazing how bent a prop can be and the flange still dial straight. A quick LPI of the flange may be prudent to ensure theres no cracks.


And it's even more amazing to me when one is hardly dinged and a crack is found. Seen it both ways quite a few times. I like to err on the side of caution when it's engine internals.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

hardtailjohn wrote:
A1Skinner wrote:[
It's amazing how bent a prop can be and the flange still dial straight. A quick LPI of the flange may be prudent to ensure theres no cracks.


And it's even more amazing to me when one is hardly dinged and a crack is found. Seen it both ways quite a few times. I like to err on the side of caution when it's engine internals.
John


I've always been told that the crank dialing straight is of little to no concern.
The counter weights on the crank slamming into their pins during the sudden stoppage (or even sudden deceleration) that is the real concern as it can throw things out of balance internally and fracture the crank a few hundred hours later. Not to mention what else that can happen in the accessory case when rotating masses suddenly stop rotating.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

It was explained to me that 100 hr inspections were required for aircraft in commercial operation whereas only annuals were required for privately operated.

(bubbles popping above my head...)
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

Jumping in here to help beat the dead horse.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... _CHG_2.pdf
56956DAA-62E7-44D0-845D-68B5F72A75E6.jpeg
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

Let me at that horse, I'll give it a few more licks!
From the linked document (AC 43-9C):

"If the owner maintains separate records for the airframe, powerplants, and propellers, the entry for the 100-hour inspection is entered in each, while the annual inspection is only required to be entered into the airframe record."

"Is only required" are the key words here,
nothing says you can't enter the annual in the powerplant & prop logs.
"100 hour inspection" entries in the engine & prop books,
coinciding with an "annual inspection" entry in the airframe book, doesn't quite seem right.
But I can see why some IA's enter them as 100 hours.
I can even see where the one IA I know that doesn't enter them at all except in the airframe book has a basis for doing that--
after all, it's an annual, not a 100 hour.
Everyone else can do as they see fit,
but I think I'll stick to having "annual inspection" endorsements in all 3 of my logbooks.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

There is a right way, wrong way, and government way. When it comes to sanctions, the government goes by the "government" way. I had an airplane officially grounded because an IA had scratched through the 135 part of PA22-135 on the airworthiness certificate and had written in 150. This had happened some ten annuals prior to it's last annual. My aviation lawyer, Margaret Lamb, gave ABQ GADO a hard time and they replaced it with a new "original airworthiness certificate" with PA22-135.

It just doesn't pay to have new, different, or original thoughts and descriptions when dealing with the government. It has to do with how bureaucracy works. Weird sometimes but also sometimes you can scratch out "machine gun" and write in "popcorn popper."
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

IMHO altering an a/w certificate is just asking for trouble. Im not even sure its "legal" to laminate one, crazy as that sounds, although i know folks whove done it.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

hotrod180 wrote:IMHO altering an a/w certificate is just asking for trouble. Im not even sure its "legal" to laminate one, crazy as that sounds, although i know folks whove done it.


I did it to ten dollar bills in college. Just add a zero and they spent just fine at McDonalds. If you didn’t want to go to all the trouble of counterfeiting, we simply asked if they had two tens for a five.... [-X
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

I’ve been dealing with my local FSDO, it’s like pulling teeth to get them to sign a field approval when I have three recently previously approved. They are “too busy and under staffed”. I feel like they wouldn’t give two shits. But that’s my local FSDO.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

Tom wrote:I’ve been dealing with my local FSDO, it’s like pulling teeth to get them to sign a field approval when I have three recently previously approved. They are “too busy and under staffed”. I feel like they wouldn’t give two shits. But that’s my local FSDO.


It’s not just you, it’s that same here in these parts. I was all to happy to send back my IA card years ago when I had to schedule an appointment and get buzzed in the FSDO building.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

Intercostel wrote:It’s not just you, it’s that same here in these parts. I was all to happy to send back my IA card years ago when I had to schedule an appointment and get buzzed in the FSDO building.


I had to go to the Seattle FSDO not long ago.
First of all, inspite of there being about 300 FAA employees in their new, 82,000 sq ft building,
don't think you're gonna get anyone to answer the phone when you call to make an appointment--
it's leave a voice mail & wait for them to call you back (when you can't answer).
Then when you drive there (2 hours each way for me), you'll find a huge, totally fenced parking lot.
You'll eventually find the single gate, complete with armed guard.
There's an airport-style metal-detector in lobby, along with 3 armed guards.
Try #1-- take your pocketknife back to to your car, parked a 1/4 mile away.
Try #2- get theu the detector, & sign in, then wait downstairs for FAA guy to come downstairs to get you.
Then do your business right there because "if you come up to the office, we have to have someone assigned to watch you".
Then wait while he goes unpstairs to complete your paperwork....
squeezing your legs together because you forgot to ask him to escort you to the restroom.
Then the 2 hour drive back home.
Grrrr...
Can you tell I didn't enjoy it much?
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

hotrod180 wrote:
Intercostel wrote:It’s not just you, it’s that same here in these parts. I was all to happy to send back my IA card years ago when I had to schedule an appointment and get buzzed in the FSDO building.


I had to go to the Seattle FSDO not long ago.
First of all, inspite of there being about 300 FAA employees in their new, 82,000 sq ft building,
don't think you're gonna get anyone to answer the phone when you call to make an appointment--
it's leave a voice mail & wait for them to call you back (when you can't answer).
Then when you drive there (2 hours each way for me), you'll find a huge, totally fenced parking lot.
You'll eventually find the single gate, complete with armed guard.
There's an airport-style metal-detector in lobby, along with 3 armed guards.
Try #1-- take your pocketknife back to to your car, parked a 1/4 mile away.
Try #2- get theu the detector, & sign in, then wait downstairs for FAA guy to come downstairs to get you.

Then do your business right there because "if you come up to the office, we have to have someone assigned to watch you".
Then wait while he goes unpstairs to complete your paperwork....
squeezing your legs together because you forgot to ask him to escort you to the restroom.
Then the 2 hour drive back home.
Grrrr...
Can you tell I didn't enjoy it much?


Have you internalized yet that Bin Laden won?
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

Part of why I am / was so unhappy is that I asked my IA to see if his PMI could help me take care of it...
as in I'd email him the required stuff, and maybe he could bring me my new airworthiness certificate on a shop visit here.
Our old PMI was a super guy, he woulda done this no sweat---
but this new guy didn't even return my IA's phone call.
Nice.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

As a general rule, I don’t like it when I’m negative. As it turns out I’m really good at it and don’t know when to stop. So when I had the same experiences as listed above, over and over, with no resolution in sight it was time to throw in the towel. Besides, the drive to SLC from here was 3.5 hrs each way. Who’s going to pay me for that? I kinda enjoy living under a roof and eating solid food so the bureaucracy wins again...
It’s a shame for me personally. I really love the small planes but there’s just no money in it here. I work in the corporate world now which is ok but I would never describe it as exciting. I have to make the pilgrimage to Reno and Lakeland once a year to remind myself why I got into aviation in the first place.
The experimental crowd makes me proud, and a little jealous.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

That is exactly why myself and a few others are getting away from the certified aircraft and wanting to go experimental!! Having had to deal with government crap since the late 70's, I am getting to old to deal with the bulsh!t! Life is way too short to deal with power hungry idiots.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

What about a scenario of a person who finds a frame or project plane with no paper work or #'s.

Can they buy logs off a person who's plane is scrapped and just apply those books to the new project plane so they can rebuild the new frame up as the one with purchased logs?

Just wondering if there was an easier way for a person to get a restored plane flying.
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Re: FSDO and falsified logs

WWhunter wrote:That is exactly why myself and a few others are getting away from the certified aircraft and wanting to go experimental!! Having had to deal with government crap since the late 70's, I am getting to old to deal with the bulsh!t! Life is way too short to deal with power hungry idiots.


Says the guy who spent ow many years in and around the military? :lol:

Sorry, couldn’t resist.... [-X

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