sstjames,

I'm not too big on dispensing advice, but if I may make a suggestion or two, it'd be this: Get hooked up with a group of folks that are like minded and get as much exposure to the type of flying that strikes your interest, and in & around as many types of planes as you can before you dump a bunch of hard earned cash into something you may or may not be able to get it back out of.
Even the words "backcountry flying" cover a pretty broad spectrum. Having said all that, after you narrow down your wants and NEEDS, you will find that there are a few types that will get you started without too much sacrifice.
Take care, Rob

sstjames wrote:Thanks everyone for the great advise.

I can't afford much, but anyone have an idea where to find a really cheap working plane? Also I would love suggestions on good starter backcountry planes.

Thanks,
Sara

Are you interested in Experimental hombuilts at all? I understand there's a very nice 4 place Bearhawk for sale in Arizona for about $45,000 right now. It's complete and been flying for a few years. If you're interested I'll try and find a link to the info. I'm building the 2 place Bearhawk Patrol, so I'm a little biased.

Here's the factory specs on them http://www.bearhawkaircraft.com/Bearhaw ... kMain.html

Phil

That's a surprisingly low price for a Bearkawk, even a 180-horse version. Considering that even the oldest ones are still pretty new.
Sara, I'd suggest that you get some time in various airplanes. I prefer taildraggers, so do most people that use them for back-country type op's. What kinda price range are you looking at?

Eric

Unless you have a lot of money for an airplane and one-on-one instruction, I wouldn't worry about buying a "backcountry" airplane. You're not going to be accessing anything other than well established airports with easy approaches for a while yet. Start looking in your area for a taildragger you can easily afford and live with its limitations. There's precious little point in worrying whether your airplane is backcountry ready until you are.

Best basic airplanes for the dollar: Taylorcraft, Champs, Luscombe, Cessna 120/140.

Or experimentals, of which there are hundreds. Many of those could be a real buy, because they are never worth the sum of the prices of their parts. But...have a REALLY smart mechanic look at ANY of these very closely.

Wanabe: A flight instructor does not have to hold a current valid medical certificate to give dual instruction, EXCEPT if the "student" is not rated for the the aircraft category and class.

I don't know about the mountain flying seminars, but there are a couple of emergency upset recovery outfits where the instructors will not sign your logbook as dual given, even though at least some of them are CFI's. I wouldn't go any place that takes that tack. They just don't want their name in your logbook, and somehow think that will protect them from a lawsuit.

It won't.

MTV

Take this for what it's worth. If you buy an older airplane "right". Then you will not be hurt on re-selling it. If you rent then there are a LOT of expenses you will not be taking a risk with, but, when it's all said and done, all you will have to show for your money is logbook entries.
I would rent, but keep my eye open. Every now and again you may run into a real deal. Especially this time of year. The worst thing you can do is get airplane fever. The spring time is the worst time to buy. Some people get the Christmas bills and decide they need to sell that airplane. If your in the right place at the right time, you can actually fly a couple of years and sell for more than you paid for it.

Oh,
And if it were me I'd try to confine myself to MTV's list of basic airplanes.

I'd think a Pacer or even a Tripacer would be a good plane to kick around in. A guy that works at the FBO in Idaho Falls just picked up a Tripacer for $10,000, owner died and wife wanted to get ride of it. It hadn't been flown for a while so he put a $2000 annual on it. Not sure those kind of deals come around often but it ain't the first one I've heard of.

Jon

mtv wrote:Best basic airplanes for the dollar: Taylorcraft, Champs, Luscombe, Cessna 120/140.

MTV

I agree with a64, this list pretty much sums up the best of the basics, I would be looking hard at these. Being a "cubber" the T-cart would be at the top of my list, your mileage may vary...

anticub,
That IS cheap for a Bearhawk. You certainly couldn't build one for that! I have looked into them a lot. The only thing, that gets me is that I am based in their backyard, yet I have never seen one in the local "backcountry"
Most of the locals I fly with are people I met by plopping down next to them in the sticks to say hi! or visa versa. Maybe they don't sell Bearhawks to locals?
whee's right on with the "deals" on pacers, not sure how ideal they'd be for a newer tailwheel pilot new at backcountry though?

I'm looking for an underpowered, inexpensive airplane to knock around in and also that my kid will learn to fly by "finessing" and under powered airplane and not just by brute power. T-cart's and Luscombe's are on the top of my list, but I can find 10 120's / 140's for each one of them. I think them being LSA's doesn't help the price either. If it helps, so far in my search the best for the money I keep running up on are the little Cessna's.

anticub,
That IS cheap for a Bearhawk. You certainly couldn't build one for that! I have looked into them a lot. The only thing, that gets me is that I am based in their backyard, yet I have never seen one in the local "backcountry"
Most of the locals I fly with are people I met by plopping down next to them in the sticks to say hi! or visa versa. Maybe they don't sell Bearhawks to locals?

Rob, Give Budd a call, I'm sure he'd be happy to sell a kit to a local. Or better yet, call Bob Barrows in Virginia and order a set of plans.
You could probably scratch build one for $45k if you found a mid time engine. I'm not surprized you haven't bumped into one yet. There arn't too many flying yet, about 100 I think. But I hear there's 2 or 3 in Utah that get used in the back country quite a bit now.

Sara, I guess we should have asked you what type of backcountry flying you're interested in. 3,000ft maintained strips in the mountains? Or off-airport sand bars and ridgetops? Something in between?

Phil

Hey Everyone,
Like Sara, I too just got my license a couple months ago. It took me 3.5mo to get it as I wanted to fly backcountry and just wanted to get done with the basics.
I'm currently looking for an aircraft under 20k. Been leaning towards a tcraft or c140.
At the moment I'm flying out of Twitchells for my IR, but will also get my tail-wheel out of there as well. Good people there and if anyone wants any info, I'm more than willing to help.
I'd love to hook up with some other maine bush pilots to learn the intricacies of flying up here

For an inexpensive backcountry aircraft, don't buy a plane because it's for sale cheap. There's a reason it'll be cheap and you will get frustrated pouring money into a plane, especially when it is grounded for maintenance half of the time. Don't discount experimental aircraft, just be very cautious. Pre-purchase inspection!

Learning to fly the backcountry? Get instruction and go about it slowly and deliberately. Learn slow flight, stalls, spot landing, and how to read the weather. Just remember, the skills are important but experience and judgment will keep you alive when a beautiful flying day goes to hell.

Hey Raven! Good to see another Mainer around. We have several on this board. Do a search for "Maine" and they'll pop up. Have you checked out the guys at CCAS http://www.flyccas.com/ for instruction. They are up in Millinocket and I think Old Town.

Maine is easier than the West because we don't have huge mountain ranges to contend with, but still fun. Last winter I was following one of our local pilots in his Champ. He showed me how to land on the frozen Kennebeck River and on the Pleasant Pond snowmobile trails. My first off-runway excursions in a small plane and I loved it.

I'll be back from Afghanistan next August so then maybe we'll run into each other at Twitchell's. I normally fly out of Merrymeeting, 08B.

AntiCub wrote:

That IS cheap for a Bearhawk. You certainly couldn't build one for that! I have looked into them a lot. The only thing, that gets me is that I am based in their backyard, yet I have never seen one in the local "backcountry".

Rob, Give Budd a call, I'm sure he'd be happy to sell a kit to a local. Or better yet, call Bob Barrows in Virginia and order a set of plans.
You could probably scratch build one for $45k if you found a mid time engine. I'm not surprized you haven't bumped into one yet. There arn't too many flying yet, about 100 I think. But I hear there's 2 or 3 in Utah that get used in the back country quite a bit now.
Phil

Hi, first time posting here. I usually spend my spare time on the Bearhawk mail-list. In fact it was Phil saying something there about this forum that got me to reading here. (Thanks, Phil! More reading to keep me away from the garage and my project...)

Yeah, Budd's in Phoenix, but there isn't really a kit operation there, per se', I don't think. They have one or two demonstrators that are in FL or TX, I think when they're not doing the fly-in circuit. Otherwise, the kits come into the country through Austin and are trucked directly to the buyer. The engineering was done by Bob Barrows in VA, and you'll need the plans to go with the kit anyway, so it isn't an either/or choice.

Also, I think 100 flying may be high. I was thinking the total was still less than 50; seems like it wasn't too long ago that they crossed 25 flying (and was that kits or kits + scratch-builts) that was a magic number for getting insurance.

It's taken years for the first several plans-builts to take to flight, but the kits seem to be launching in growing numbers. Someone announced today that they had just received plans-set 1050 from Bob.

Benton
BH Plans #421

Hammer wrote:Sara,
My advice is to buy a plane. Backcountry flying requires a higher than average level of skill, which for most people translates directly into a higher than average number of hours. You'll just never get those hours as a renter, and if you do you'll have wasted a tremendous amount of money. A few hundred hours in a small, old, underpowered airplane will do more for your flying than anything else.

if you look for the right airplane, it's not nearly as expensive as you might think. You don't need power, or range, or fancy instruments. Depending on where you're flying, you don't even need a radio or transponder. For that matter, you don't need a starter motor or battery. It's amazing how little you really need to fly, and once you take all that crap out of a plane they not only get a lot cheaper, but they get a lot lighter!

As far as books go, the best book I've found yet is Stick and Rudder.
good luck,
ravi

Wow, Ravi- you just perfectly summarized my first 200 hours, including Alaska to Rhode Island round-trip in a 65 HP, non-electric, $13,000 1941 T-Cart. No regrets on taking that path- I'd do it just the same again. Not to mention that 3.5 gallons of auto gas per hour makes it a lot easier to build time. You are supposed to have a transponder to cross the 54th parallel, but TSA gave me a waiver with surprisingly little hassle.

Sara- I think you'll also find that time spent without flaps and extra power pay off down the road, and not having decent hydraulic brakes makes the transition to skis a lot less of a deal.

That, plus local knowledge from pilots you trust is at least one good way to start.

Good luck!

I got this e-mail from Budd at Bearhawk, thought I'd pass it along:

Bearhawk Christmas sale!
The only requirement is that you need to take delivery before Christmas to realize the discount.
The discounts are:
Quick Build - $3000 discount (includes $500 for aux tanks. Original price $36,020, Christmas price $33,000
QB Fuselage - $1,700 discount (see attached order form for description of kit). Original price $17,730, Christmas price $16,000
QB Wings - $1,500 discount (see attached order form). Original price $14,600, Christmas price, $13,100
If you need more info, let me know.
Budd Davisson
AviPro Aircraft, Ltd.
602-971-3768

I didn't put the F.S. thing in the subject line because I'm not selling it, just passing it on,
Chad.

My two cents, for what it is worth. I have an old 172 with a 52 inch climb prop and manual flaps. The older birds are a bit lighter, cheaper to buy and maintain, great visibility, and the manual flaps are pretty handy. It is no where near the iron most of these guys have, but it has gotten me into (and most importantly out of) some incredible places so bottom line I am happy.

Right or wrong, I steered away from profession instruction and instead used intellect, common sense, networking and never enough hours of incremental practice. I read anything I can get, apply my sanity and applicability filter, and sock away the good bits in my head. I like to yak to folks about even the smallest details of anyplace. I fly each approach even at the home patch as if it was one way and one shot. When jumping in or out of a new place I have about a million "outs" going thru my head. On occasion and for practice I like to closely surf the hills, and in doing so you get the feel of clean and trashy air along with the mental exercise of continually looking for an out.

I feel one must experiment to some degree otherwise you will never learn, but always do so conservatively and always within the bounds of your personal and aircraft limitations.

Okay, maybe just one cent worth...

Sounds to me like a common sense approach to learning "how-to":
instruction in the basics, then practice and cautious experimentation to get better. Good show!
Seems like some people urge you to "fly with an instructor" every time you want to go somewhere new or try something different. Not necesarily the best way to learn for everyone. Of course, "self instruction" isn't always the best way to go either.

Eric

cowboypilot wrote:Okay, maybe just one cent worth...

Hey... For a penny's worth you've taken a pretty good path, and I'm betting you're learning a lot and having a hell of a lot of fun. Make that old C172 sing and dance, and get comfy close to the rocks, and the rest will just fall into place like ya knew it all the time.

Keep up the good work.

Gump