Things got a little sideways on this landing.

I can not believe it did not fold the left gear!

I bet that belly has a few wrinkles in it now.
Wonder if it has a PPonk mod

[emoji33][emoji847]


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A light crosswind is harder to analyze than a strong one. He had a nice little side slip going that seemed to counter the light crosswind. He either wanted the mains to touch down together or just felt the need to drive with the ailerons. Rudder only is required for longitudinal alignment. Once we have the bank necessary to counter drift, we need to leave the ailerons alone.

Got it down and walked away!!! Nice job!!!
DENNY

I couldn't see that we was using the ailerons at all. Seems like he was just along for the ride. Of course, we can't see the rudder or the windsock the whole time but I get the impression that little was done to counteract a fairly mild crosswind. Landed pretty hot too for my taste. That's my shot from the peanut gallery....coming from a guy who had is ass kicked all weekend by 9 knot cross winds!! Had to add power and bail a couple of times.

Run the vid a few times and notice when the rudder comes into view. For the most part it remains stationary. I bet his feet never moved until he stopped. Looks like he was along for the ride.

RT

fiftynineSC wrote:I couldn't see that we was using the ailerons at all. Seems like he was just along for the ride. Of course, we can't see the rudder or the windsock the whole time but I get the impression that little was done to counteract a fairly mild crosswind. Landed pretty hot too for my taste. That's my shot from the peanut gallery....coming from a guy who had is ass kicked all weekend by 9 knot cross winds!! Had to add power and bail a couple of times.

Agreed. No aileron input that I could see either. We all know that as you slow you've got to increase the aileron input as they become less and less effective. FiftynineSC, there's no shame in a go around. I think it's an underused tool.

Yep, if anything towards the end of that ride, there was actually a little rudder INTO the loop. Prior to that I didn't see a whit of rudder, and it should have been full opposite the turn.

Hopefully he got away without much damage, but I'd sure want someone well qualified to take a good look at that gearbox as well as the wing.

Hope nobody's got a camera rolling next time I screw up.....

MTV

mtv wrote:
Hope nobody's got a camera rolling next time I screw up.....

MTV

No kidding!

There was a time when I had about 55 hours in my log book and I decided to purchase a fairly ratty 170. I got my tailwheel endorsement nearly a year earlier after flying 8 or so hours in a Husky in calm winds. For the first month of owning the 170, my mind could simply not put the pieces together quickly enough to handle a crosswind or gusty conditions on roll out. I darted off of the runway and in to the dirt once after a perfectly smooth touchdown. I would stop flying the airplane and was along for the ride, as it appears that this pilot is. I'm speculating that he or she is not a very experienced tailwheel pilot. It can take a little while to get over the misconception that once the wheels are on the ground that the workload associated with landing the plane is relieved. This is a habit that most training aircraft will tolerate and even encourage.

I agree, he was strictly along for the ride. After watching the video half a dozen times, I don't see any correct input of either the rudder or the ailerons--in fact, the ailerons appear to be into the bank instead of against it, and although the rudder isn't visible some of the time, when it is, it's straight, not against the turn at all.

Yesterday I took my airplane down to KBJC to have new com antennas put on it, and although the ride down wasn't all that bad, on short final it got really pretty lumpy, with gusty 25-30 knot winds about 30 degrees off of runway heading--not a huge crosswind component by any measure, but enough to keep both ailerons and feet moving all the way to a nice smooth touchdown and well beyond, all the way to parking at the avionics shop. Then on departure later in the afternoon, the winds had picked up, and the very slow taxi out with the quartering 30-35 knot tailwind involved a lot of rudder and way more brake than I like. On both landing and subsequent take off, I was very thankful that I wasn't flying a tail dragger!

Cary

Looks like he did his post landing checklist though. You can see the flaps go up once the thing skids to a halt.

rw2 wrote:Looks like he did his post landing checklist though. You can see the flaps go up once the thing skids to a halt.

That's another issue. I learned and taught not to use flaps in extreme crosswinds, and while this didn't look like it was all that extreme (until he lost control), I wondered if he'd have been better off without using flaps.

Cary

Any chance there was prop/jet blast (from the side) as the plane rolled out?

Agreed...the controls don't seem to be used to correct the conditions encountered...could it have been an unexpected source of cross "wind" that caught the pilot by surprise?

Maybe a situation to ponder when you operate into an airport with more than just trees on each side of the runway....

I agree with Cary about the up aileron on the left wing as it goes down to the pavement. I think he was trying to prevent the weathervaning, after touchdown, by turning the control wheel left. We instructors see this common error of using coordinated turns for longitudinal alignment on final and even on the ground, even in airplanes with steerable nose wheel. The best way to counter this, and the identification of slight crosswind problem, is to teach all approach and landing the same. Maintain longitudinal alignment with rudder while managing drift with bank. They have to understand that the final approach is uncoordinated (rub belly while patting head) regardless of wind speed and direction. In this way the side slip just happens, when necessary, rather than being a separate (do I need this on this approach) technique. KISS.

A good training technique is for the instructor to take the throttle and control wheel or stick on final. We need teach the student to dynamically and proactively move the rudder anytime longitudinal or butt to target alignment is desired. Yes the rub tummy pat head works with the crab as well. KISS.

There is a time for coordination and a time for rub tummy pat head. Turning wants coordination and directed course to target does not.

I disagree about flaps. Had flaps not been used, would not the extra speed have resulted in more damage?

The reason I don't use flaps on a strong crosswind landing is that I think there's a bit more rudder control at a slightly higher airspeed. We're only talking about a few knots difference (3, I think), between the flaps up and flaps down stall speed in a 170 (or any of the small GA airplanes), and that little extra airspeed gives the rudder more bite until it can be augmented by the tailwheel or nosewheel. I know that's a point of discussion among experienced pilots and instructors, but that's the way I was taught and later taught, and still fly. The most flaps I'll use is 10 degrees in a stiff crosswind, and that's if I'm landing close to gross weight--otherwise no flaps.

I agree that maybe he was trying to counteract the weathervaning tendency with the aileron, but that's exactly the wrong move. If he'd used left rudder instead and turned the yoke the opposite direction, we probably wouldn't have seen anything worth discussing, right?

Cary

I just watched it again, the only control input after he touched down that I saw was nose-up elevator. Seemed like he was along for the ride!

Yes Cary. Not knowing /practicing the difference is a big issue that can lead to failure to act. Old tailwheel instructors want some tail wiggle on final and roll out in any aircraft. We can't get that tail wiggle with aileron, just wing wag.

Again, light crosswind can lead to inactivity problems while strong crosswinds are good teachers.

PittsDriver wrote:Run the vid a few times and notice when the rudder comes into view. For the most part it remains stationary. I bet his feet never moved until he stopped. Looks like he was along for the ride.

RT

CamTom12 wrote:I just watched it again, the only control input after he touched down that I saw was nose-up elevator. Seemed like he was along for the ride!

This was the first thing I thought ^

He has manual flaps, and yet they remain down the whole time. That's the first mistake in a crosswind landing. Tailwheel landing instead of a wheel landing... too much airspeed at round-out and a looong flare, the plane is lifting off again over and over. Ailerons and rudder remain more or less neutral. Elevator is oscillating....
Perhaps this is unkind, but that was basically a plane landing itself, not a lot of piloting happening there.