Just curious about this,noticeable improvements, effects on reliability and costs. ??/
gary

Can you amplify this question?

Do you mean the aftermarket turbo charging system by Bully Hawk for the 912UL?

I know of no mechanical supercharger, roots type or centrifugal, made (or used) on any Rotax aircraft engine, two or four stroke.

I am aware of the turbo edition. Don't know much about these, but thinking I will probly end up with a ELSA, and flying around here basically starts around 7000' and goes up, so getting lower level power sounds good. Sounds like turbos need high rpms to make power, where superchargers can make more at lower rpms, making me think they would be prefereed for backcountry flying and shorter takeoffs.

Seems someone probly has been messin with this stuff, just curious how it is goin.

Gary

You do know that any aircraft with forced induction (turbo or whatever) is no longer eligible for LSA rules, right?

No, I did not know that. Bummer. But thanks
Gary

So...always carry a couple wrenches - if you prang it, and can't retrieve it before someone finds out - take the supercharger off....

Av8r3400 wrote:You do know that any aircraft with forced induction (turbo or whatever) is no longer eligible for LSA rules, right?

Are you sure about that? I can't find it in the LSA rules.

I've owned a Stemme S10-VT, that uses a turbocharger and intercooler (the intercooler not from Rotax). Though rated for 115% power on take off, this turbo installation is really more about turbo-normalizing for higher altitude flight rather than gaining horsepower. Given the occassional cracking issues, engine cases in particular, I'd be leary of running boost too high. Also, the turbo will be the first thing to fail if proper cool down isn't observed or oil pressure doesn't immediately come on-line at start up - - something to be concerned with after oil change etc. The turbo uses a small sleeve bearing and cannot do without oil for even a moment, lest bad expensive things happen.

tcj wrote:

Av8r3400 wrote:You do know that any aircraft with forced induction (turbo or whatever) is no longer eligible for LSA rules, right?

Are you sure about that? I can't find it in the LSA rules.

Of course this is NOT a 912 and the write up does not say it is ELSA. May be for a straight Experimental. I will try to find an answer on the question of supercharged ELSA.

tcj wrote:

Av8r3400 wrote:You do know that any aircraft with forced induction (turbo or whatever) is no longer eligible for LSA rules, right?

Are you sure about that? I can't find it in the LSA rules.

I thought I was. I could swear the regulation said "... a single normally aspirated reciprocating engine. ..." Now I can't find that statement, either. Maybe I eat my words.

I'd find it hard to believe that a turbo would be allowed but a controllable prop or a Cessna 150 is not. But then again, the logic behind the LSA rules escapes me in general.

I stand corrected.


Section (6) of the LSA rule states:

6. A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.


So, that being said, blow away...

Av8r3400 wrote:

tcj wrote:

Av8r3400 wrote:You do know that any aircraft with forced induction (turbo or whatever) is no longer eligible for LSA rules, right?

Are you sure about that? I can't find it in the LSA rules.

I thought I was. I could swear the regulation said "... a single normally aspirated reciprocating engine. ..." Now I can't find that statement, either. Maybe I eat my words.

I'd find it hard to believe that a turbo would be allowed but a controllable prop or a Cessna 150 is not. But then again, the logic behind the LSA rules escapes me in general.

Something similar to what you saw was in one of the early proposals. As far as I can find there is no prohibition of turbos in the final rule. There are several SLSAs offered with the rotax 914 which has a turbo Charger. There are several people flying EABs under sport pilot rules with the turboed HKS. Logic is not part of the FAA rule making.

I've wondered for some time if you couldn't drive a blower off of the accessory drive on the 912. I don't know what the torque rating or RPM is on that drive pad, but wouldn't that be cool.

I am not an expert at LSA rules but I understand it like this. If I had bought a factory completed LSA it would be
S-LSA (Special Airworthiness Certificated LSA) They can be purchased and used as rental, instruction or for hire. But if I bought it as a kit and completed it. Regardless of the % of my own effort vs. factory effort that was involved in completing it, it is an E-LSA and will always be certificated as Experimental and cannot be used for rental,instruction or hire. That makes for two different resale values for the same model aircraft.

In addition, if I modify my E-LSA such as adding a turbo, or any other way that deviates from the FAA certified and approved engines or instrument list or make an airframe change then it is no longer E-LSA and is booted into the Experimental Amateur Built category. It can then be flown with a PPL but not a Sport Pilot license any longer. So, no turbo or supercharger could be added to an S-LSA or an E-LSA if it did not already exist on the manufacture equipment list that was certified by the FAA as approved for that LSA aircraft.

You would have to find a model from the FAA certified list of LSA's with the turbo or the supercharged engine approved on that aircraft in order to have one. Just don't try to add one as an equipment change later.

I understand this rule can become a problem when someone wants to substitute something as minor as steam gauges instead of electronic. If the thing was certified with electronic, then that is all you get to use. Better hope that electronics package doesn't give trouble if its the only one it was certified with. I was hoping to get an answer from the EAA on this finer point of contention but got no reply as yet. As always I am open to beatings on my post.

It was our understanding that the 914 has the compression of the 912UL core engine, therefor would the 912ULS / 912S EVER lend itself well to turbocharging without additional complex considerations?

http://www.wingsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=19840

Gary, for info on more powerful 912S follow this thread, Steve has installed a turboed 912s not a 914 and he says it has alot more power than the 914. There are seven pages and he goes through his first flights and how it is working and where he got the engine built.
mike

Thanks Mike
Gary

In addition, if I modify my E-LSA such as adding a turbo, or any other way that deviates from the FAA certified and approved engines or instrument list or make an airframe change then it is no longer E-LSA and is booted into the Experimental Amateur Built category. It can then be flown with a PPL but not a Sport Pilot license any longer.

I'm not meaning to take this thread off track or be picky, but...Experimental Amateur Built can be flown under Sport Pilot rules.

tcj is correct. just because it is put into the AB catagory doesn't mena it can no longer be flown under the SP rules. The LSA catagory is 'mostly' regulated by speeds and useful load. So as long as the plane does not exceed these limits it is good to go.
WW

Here is the reply from the EAA. The answer depends.


Hi Lynn,

There are no engine or propeller requirements or limitations for ELSA
aircraft, unless you are building from a kit based on a SLSA, like a
Vans RV-12. In that case, you must build the aircraft as a duplicate of
the SLSA to qualify for the ELSA airworthiness certificate. Basically,
about all you can change is the paint. If you add or delete items, it
would not be a duplicate, and would not be granted the ELSA certificate.
At that point it hopefully could be certificated as Experimental
Amateur-Built instead.

If I can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact me
directly.

Regards,

Tim

Tim Hoversten, EAA #598743
Technical Aviation Specialist
EAA-The Spirit of Aviation